Half-ass-backwards stimulus [Archive]

Citnalta

08-21-2010, 03:54 PM

Another prime example (there are many) of why OBAMA'S progressive economic job stimulus plan, -- conceived and written with an INEXPERIENCED academic mindset -- fails to develop and/or materialize into worthy solutions, when applied in the REAL WORLD.

Labor force turning 'green'

Job fair attracts those with energy-saving, environmental skills

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=GS&Date=20100820&Category=ARTICLES&ArtNo=8201011&Ref=AR&Profile=1118&MaxW=600&border=0 (http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100820/ARTICLES/8201011/1118#) Doug Finger/Staff photographer

Pat Horton, a framer with DWC of High Springs, unloads a truckload of pre-made frames for a home in Long Leaf Village Thursday.

By Anthony Clark (anthony.clark@gvillesun.com)
Business editor

Published: Friday, August 20, 2010 at 6:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Friday, August 20, 2010 at 12:02 a.m.
( page of 3 )

Twenty-two years after losing her job in the insurance business, 53-year-old Petra Lee of Gainesville hopes to get a job marketing green construction projects for a building contractor.

#forumnumcom h6 {width:250px;float:left;margin:18px 10px 0 0;padding:10px 0 15px;border-bottom:none;border-top:9px solid #888} .art_main_pic { width:250px; float:left; clear:left; } With more than 25 years in accounting, 68-year-old Eli Santana of Gainesville now would like to help a big company find energy savings.

They are among the more than 130 people out of work but newly trained in various green skills designed to improve energy efficiency so Gainesville will have the talent to attract businesses in the burgeoning green energy economy.

But few of those green jobs are here - yet - and the unemployed can't wait around for the new jobs to emerge or the existing ones to open up.

The jobs that are available include a growing number of temporary positions as companies have more work but don't yet have the confidence to bring more workers on permanently.

FloridaWorks held a job fair Thursday for temporary staffing agencies to interview graduates of the green training program along with other interested job seekers.

The workforce agency administered the green training with $500,000 from the Workforce Investment Act federal stimulus program. Of the 203 people who enrolled, 133 remain unemployed.

In contacting businesses that could benefit from energy savings - in construction, warehousing, maintenance and manufacturing - the agency found that many were hiring temporary employees through staffing agencies, said Janeen Smith, spokeswoman for FloridaWorks. The agencies also had jobs in clerical, customer service and retail.

While many of the open jobs are not related to green training, TempForce works with government and wastewater management facilities that use those skills, said Amber Buchanan, customer relations manager.

Bob Walther, owner of Wal-Staf, said job orders have grown slowly and steadily since April and are picking up again as college students return and businesses prepare for the extra business.

"I feel like we're starting to crawl out - and the word is crawl," he said. "I still see too many clients struggling to stay in business."

Sharon Hyatt-Armstrong, staffing administrator with TempForce, said the business also is beginning to see an upswing. "It's very encouraging."

Those looking for work say their efforts have been anything but encouraging, however.

Lee lost her job managing an insurance training school three years ago and said she hasn't been able to find anything in insurance despite having several certifications and 22 years in sales, management, training and customer service.

She said she is frustrated she can't find out where she stands with most of the openings for which she has applied.

"I'm lucky if I even get a response," she said.
Lee and another woman said they have had to play down their experience over concerns they are overqualified for some jobs.

Self-employed carpenter Bruce Wolf, 54, of Micanopy said work on new homes stalled in 2008 and that lately work on renovations and additions has slumped as well.

He said he has advertised and called every general contractor between Gainesville and Ocala every few months to no avail.

"Sixty, 70 percent say they're out of work also," he said.
Wolf took several green energy courses, including one that allowed him to teach construction part time at Santa Fe College, but the work has been scarce.

"I tried contacting all the power companies and weatherization programs that hire (energy) auditors and nobody's hiring," he said.

"I don't think the green jobs are taking off right now."

But workforce officials say the training will give job seekers a leg up when the green jobs do materialize.
Asked if green training will help construction workers find jobs, home builder Adam Bolton, president of Robinshore Inc., said "It has to."

Homes that are more efficient, air-conditioning systems that are more complex and building codes that are more stringent require green energy skills, he said, and skills and experience determine who gets the work in a soft job market.

Bolton said the temporary job trend will continue until there is a longer period of activity in residential and commercial construction.

"Until we have some relative confidence of market stability, projects really are going to dictate hiring,".

Joe Johnson, FloridaWorks director of business services, on Thursday told a crowded room of job seekers at the Santa Fe College Center for Innovation and Economic Development that until the economy turns, a temporary job is better than no job and might lead to a permanent position.

Staffing agency representatives also told job seekers to be flexible about transferring their existing skills to new kinds of work.

DUH......

Cart before the fricken horse game plan

....A private sector business would have already fired Obama and his team of crackpots, if they would have even been foolish enough to hire them in the first place.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100820/ARTICLES/8201011/1118?p=1&tc=pg

Dreamy5

08-21-2010, 04:00 PM

The Atlantic Monthly (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/05/obama-vs-bush-on-economic-growth/56778/) had a brief bit about the economy under Obama as compared to Bush.

Quoting:

Obama vs. Bush on Economic Growth
MAY 14 2010, 6:50 PM ET | Comment

In his latest column at National Journal, Ronald Brownstein points out that, if the economy proceeds as it has over the past four months, the U.S. will gain more jobs in 2010 than it did in George W. Bush's entire presidency. Comparing Obama and Bush is interesting, but obviously not easy, he writes:
Now the principal footnote: To compare job growth in 2010 with Bush's record ignores the nearly 4 million jobs lost in Obama's first year, during the freefall that began in Bush's final months. That's like ignoring a meteor strike. Over time, voters are likely to judge Obama by his degree of success in eliminating that deficit and reducing unemployment. Still, if the economy this year produces more than 1 million jobs -- or, conceivably, more than 2 million -- that will give Democrats more ammunition to argue that their agenda has started to turn the tide.

The real point of looking again at Bush's record is to underscore how few jobs the economy was creating even before the 2008 collapse. Bush's tally of 1 million jobs was much less than the economy had generated during any other two-term stretch since World War II: Dwight Eisenhower produced nearly 4 million, John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson (together) almost 16 million, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford (together) 11 million, Ronald Reagan 16 million, and Bill Clinton more than 22 million.

Clearly, it's a complex issue.

Citnalta

08-21-2010, 04:12 PM

Not at all complex, as long as, your content with solution lying in BLAME IT ON BUSH................Hope you carry a copy of that with you, so you'll have it handy to console any one of the MILLIONS of unemployed you may encounter. It the sort of point of view that really boosts their optimism.

Dreamy5

08-21-2010, 04:15 PM

I simply posted an opinion found in a fairly respectable publication.

Citnalta

08-21-2010, 04:16 PM

I failed at my last attempt to lose 10 pounds, but am satisfied with the knowledge that the failure could have been worse....I could have gained 50 pounds instead. So I'm in retrospect I'm content to just hang on to those 10 pounds, knowing it's not 60.:1crazy2:

IceBlueEyes

08-21-2010, 04:24 PM

Obama’s Economic Advisor – No Jobs to WHITE male construction workers
Robert Reich, President Obama’s economic adviser essentially wants Congress to create some means to ensure that stimulus funds don’t pay the salaries of white males.

http://www.youtube.com/v/opxuUj6vFa4&hl=en&fs=1

Oh, that is was half assery, and not the agenda. Same can be said for the oil drilling jobs that Half Assery just sent to Brazil, and the jobs that Half Assery sent to Mexico/GM..................... :1artist:

Citnalta

08-30-2010, 10:34 PM

No amount of "stimulus" promulgated by this administration will ever come close to the sort of tangible solutions created by this country's capitalist entrepreneurial spirit . . .

. . . It's what built this country and will be it's salvation.

:KaoC010:

Monday, Aug. 30, 2010

Quick decision saves day at Riverbank plant

With plant set to close, manager buys it

One of the unfortunate recurring stories of this recession has been of corporations closing plants and workers losing jobs.

But when faced with the same scenario at his Riverbank truss company, Jeff Qualle was determined not to become another sad statistic.

As the general manager of Universal Forest Products Plant 361 (formerly DuraBilt Truss Co. Inc.) for 15 years, Qualle was heartsick when the Michigan-based wood-product corporation announced it was going to close his plant. That would mean the loss of some 40 jobs and almost 50 years of history.

In the Northern San Joaquin Valley, plants from Trim Masters in Modesto to Neenah Paper in Ripon have shuttered because of the poor economy.

Hormel Foods in Turlock is about to follow suit, with plans to close in October. The area also has been rocked during the recession by the closures of Gottschalks Mervyns.

Couple those closures with the area's high unemployment rate, 17.6 percent in July, and the workers at the truss plant were looking at a rough road to finding new work.

After Universal Forest Products bought the truss plant four years ago, the economy and construction business took a nosedive. Once, the plant, which designs and constructs wooden structural trusses for residential and commercial building projects, cranked out close to $20 million in sales annually. Last year it cleared $4 million.

Instead of letting it all slip away, Qualle decided to buy the plant.
"I talked with my wife about it when the company told us and she said 'What about the people?' " Qualle said. "I've worked with these people for years. Some of them have coached my kids in baseball. So we talked about it and said, 'Let's try it.' "

With the help of one of his longtime neighbors, now a silent business partner, Qualle put together a package to buy the plant from its parent company.

Rick Soto, who went from being the plant design manager to general manager after the sale, has been with the company since he was 21. Now 34, Soto said Qualle taking over has inspired him and the rest of the employees.
"This is even better, it feels different," Soto said. "It doesn't feel corporate anymore. We're working for ourselves, we feel ownership. We feel very lucky."
Got it at a greatly reduced price

Qualle had to move fast, it was June when rumblings first came down that Universal Forest Products was closing the Riverbank plant. The company already had announced the closure of its other California truss plant in Fontana.

Qualle said the economic situation in the construction industry allowed him to buy the plant at a greatly reduced price, much like a real estate buyer getting a good deal on a foreclosed home.

"I guess you could call this a short-sale," said Qualle, who declined to give the exact purchase price other than to say that "they made us a very good deal."

Qualle said Universal Forest Products was thrilled at the prospect of him taking over instead of closing and helped as much as possible to make the sale happen.

In the span of a few weeks, Qualle and his partner put together an offer using some personal money and a bank credit line. He said it helped that they weren't starting a business from scratch but taking over one that was selling, producing and delivering products on a daily basis.

On Aug. 9, Qualle took over the assets and lease, officially changing the plant's name to Better Built Truss.

Big leap from manager to owner

Still, it was a big leap from general manager to president and owner in less than a month.

"I'm nervous as heck," Qualle said. "But we have fantastic people here who are working harder than they've ever worked."

Qualle was able to save 33 jobs but had to let seven people go during the transition.

Some employees have been with the company, started by Leonard Lovalvo in 1964, for more than 30 years. Many others have been there more than a decade.

Workers such as Waldo Navarro, who has been with the plant 10 years, said at first when they heard they were going to close, people were worried. But when they heard Qualle would buy it, their state of mind quickly changed.

"We're very happy because we're keeping our jobs, but also because we're here with him," Navarro said.

Qualle said the plant's prospects look promising. Business is up 25 percent from last year as it continues to make structural trusses for companies such as Atherton, Bright and KB Homes.

Since taking over two weeks ago, the plant has put out more than $500,000 in project bids.

He joked that going from general manager to owner was a demotion. In the two weeks the deal was being made, he had at most three hours of sleep each night. He has had to become a quick study at everything from liability insurance to health benefits, as he has taken over all aspects of the business.

Now, surveying the plant yard as his workers quickly move from station to station, Qualle said he feels optimistic about the company's future.

"Hey, I'm not a rich guy, but no one wants to see the failures anymore," he said. "The workers, they feel like it's part of them now. And it is. It's for them."

http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2010/08/29/17/LIVE_p0830_30a1truss1.embedded.prod_affiliate.11.j pg (http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2010/08/29/17/LIVE_p0830_30a1truss1.standalone.prod_affiliate.11 .jpg) Evavisto Villa, works on trusses at Better Built Truss, in Riverbank, August 25, 2010.
CLICK FOR MORE PHOTOS (http://www.modbee.com/2010/08/30/1315608/quick-decision-saves-day-at-riverbank.html#)
http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2010/08/29/17/LIVE_p0830_30a1truss2.thumb.prod_affiliate.11.jpg (http://www.modbee.com/2010/08/30/1315608/quick-decision-saves-day-at-riverbank.html#)
http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2010/08/29/17/LIVE_p0830_30a1truss1.thumb.prod_affiliate.11.jpg (http://www.modbee.com/2010/08/30/1315608/quick-decision-saves-day-at-riverbank.html#)

• Better Built Truss was founded in 1964 by Leonard Lovalvo as DuraBilt Truss at 3312 Patterson Road, where it still is today.

• Designs and builds wooden trusses for residential and commercial buildings
• Bought in 2006 by Michigan- based Universal Forest Products
• UFP decided to close its California truss plants in June.
• General Manager Jeff Qualle decided to buy the plant to save it from closing in August. He renamed it Better Built Truss.
• Number of employees: 33
• Amount of bids since the new ownership took over: $514,000
• For more information, call 869-4545.

http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/mi.mod00/News/Local;dcove=d;pl=story;lvl6=FeaturedStories;ac=New s;loc=ats;pos=NTL3;sz=300x250;tile=2;ord=123456789 ? (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/mi.mod00/News/Local;dcove=d;pl=story;lvl6=FeaturedStories;ac=New s;loc=ats;pos=NTL3;sz=300x250;tile=2;ord=123456789 ?)
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Read more: http://www.modbee.com/2010/08/30/1315608/quick-decision-saves-day-at-riverbank.html#ixzz0y9tHgJ5w

Citnalta

09-01-2010, 04:17 PM

Here's a good example of how the politicians in this country should be going about getting jobs instead of going back to the trough and whining for more "Obama Money" by way of passing yet another congressional stimulus slush fund.

Caterpillar opens new Arkansas factory, hiring 600
By CHUCK BARTELS (AP) – 1 hour ago

NORTH LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — Caterpillar Inc. dedicated a $140 million road grader factory Wednesday, a facility that will employ 600 people and produce the big machines for markets around the world.

The plant produced its first grader in June, and two of the behemoths flanked the state as plant manager Jon Harrison described a four-month training program that's part of the company's investment.

"We're going to export a lot of product from this facility," Harrison said, noting that productivity will have to be competitive on a global scale.

Peoria, Ill.-based Caterpillar laid off 24,000 workers worldwide last year, but the North Little Rock plant stayed on course. Gov. Mike Beebe expressed his gratitude for the company sticking with its plan "in the midst of the worst recession in our lifetimes."

The factory in North Little Rock is operating in a converted videotape and DVD facility. Caterpillar received $3 million from the Governor's Quick Action Closing Fund to help the project along.

"They (Caterpillar) wouldn't be here without the Quick Action Closing Fund," Beebe said. The $50 million fund was first approved by the Legislature in 2007 and renewed in 2009.

Arkansas has lost more jobs than it has picked up during the downturn, but Beebe said the state has worked to replace the lost jobs with better ones, such as high-level white collar jobs and upper-end manufacturing.

The recession has only grazed Arkansas, which has made modest budget cuts while other states endured mass layoffs and furloughs. But all hasn't been roses. Whirlpool Corp. laid off thousands from its refrigerator plant in Fort Smith after it opened a plant in Mexico. That rippled through the community as supplier businesses saw their orders cut or canceled.

Beebe acknowledged that many Arkansans need jobs but pointed to training that is available when opportunities arise.

Pulaski Tech community college worked with Caterpillar to train its workers, a model that other communities in the state have used as new employers opened shop.

Caterpillar said the average wage for workers at the plant would be $21 and hour. Harrison said customer feedback has been "off the charts," adding that the workers share Caterpillar's quality goals.

"They (the workers) have made a family decision" to join the company, Harrison said.

Beebe said that kind of praise for the workforce does more than reflect well on Caterpillar.

"You're giving us ammunition to get somebody else," Beebe said.
Sen. Mark Pryor was on hand with his counterpart, Sen. Blanche Lincoln, both D-Ark.

"I think people in our state have not given up on American manufacturing," Pryor said.

The state has landed a number of major employers, including wind-energy manufacturers in Jonesboro, Little Rock and Fort Smith, though a Mitsubishi turbine plant for that city is on hold due to litigation.

Conway attracted a Hewlett-Packard Co. service center with about 1,000 employees and Little Rock will be home to Southwest Pool Inc., which is building a $62 million headquarters where its 640 employees will earn an average of $85,500 per year. The company manages electric distribution for the multi-state region.

Beebe said state revenue numbers that are due later in the week came in above the state fiscal office's forecast, but said the money will serve as a cushion, not a signal that the recession is over.

You may not be in the country's TOP TEN "eduacated elite" (as some like to point out) but ... Good going ARKANSAS!!!:1clap:

:sm1115:
P.S. Hope I'm using a big enough font size with enough "red" accentuation in my posts .... Wouldn't want to irritate the font critics!

(If not, I promise to try harder next time.) :1hug3:

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 02:26 AM

Even though Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid insist we're all just a bunch of whiners....

Labor Day 2010 comes in the midst of a stunning wave of U.S. factory closings that stretches from coast to coast.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/820/factoryclosings300x300.jpg

Once upon a time America was the greatest manufacturing machine that the world has ever seen, but now it seems as though the only jobs available for working class Americans involve phrases such as "Welcome to Wal-Mart" and "Would you like fries with that?"

Even though the population of the United States has exploded over the last several decades, the number of Americans employed in the manufacturing sector today is smaller than it was in 1950.

America has become a voracious economic black hole
that "consumes" as much as possible and yet actually produces very little.

The United States is becoming de-industrialized at a blinding pace,

and it is becoming increasingly difficult for blue collar American workers to find jobs that will actually enable them to support their families.

The sad truth is that American workers don't have a whole lot to actually celebrate this Labor Day. 14 million U.S. workers are "officially unemployed" and tens of millions of others have been forced to take part-time or temporary jobs that they are overqualified for just so they can survive.

Unfortunately, this is not just a temporary situation for American workers. As millions of good jobs continue to get outsourced and offshored, Labor Day celebrations in coming years will be even more depressing. [/quote]http://www.benzinga.com/10/09/458168/as-americans-celebrate-labor-day-2010-u-s-factories-are-closing-in-droves

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 02:27 AM

Gawd.....I love those huge red and black fonts!!!! :1chirol_k

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 02:50 AM

The following are just some examples of the recent factory closings that have been sweeping the nation....

*Chrysler has announced that its plans to close an engine plant in Kenosha, Wisconisn are official. The factory will be shut down for good on approximately October 8th and about 575 jobs (http://www.wsau.com/news/articles/2010/aug/07/chrysler-close-kenosha-engine-plant/) will be lost.

*The largest milk producer in the United States, Dean Foodshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.benzinga.com/10/09/458168/as-americans-celebrate-labor-day-2010-u-s-factories-are-closing-in-droves#), says that it will close a South Carolina dairy plant in October. That factory closing will eliminate 151 jobs (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9HJEBAG3.html). This is just the latest in a string of factory closings for Dean Foods. Over the past several years Dean Foods has closed factories in Michigan, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Wisconsin.

*Continental Structural Plastics, a major producer of body panels for cars, is shutting down its plant in North Baltimore, Ohio in October and as a result 214 people (http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=12953902) will lose their jobs.

*Perfect Fit Industries (a prominent manufacturer of bedding accessories, pillows and comforters) has announced that it plans to close a factory in Loogootee, Indiana by the end of the year. As a result, 95 jobs (http://www.ibj.com/loogootee-losing-95-jobs-to-plant-closing/PARAMS/article/21681) will be lost.

*Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a factory that produces the Ford Ranger (http://www.economyincrisis.org/content/american-factories-continue-shutter) in St. Paul, Minnesota. Approximately 750 good paying jobs are going to be lost. Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty was so desperate to keep the plant open that he offered Ford a multi-million dollar incentive package full of tax cuts and job creation incentives to keep it open, but Ford rejected the offer, saying that the St. Paul plant just does not fit with Ford's new "global" manufacturing strategy.

*The city of Breckenridge, Texas has been shaken by news that Karsten Homes notified nearly 130 employees (http://www.ktxs.com/big_country_news/24832296/detail.html) that their local factory will be closing in two months.

*It has been announced that there will be a new round of layoffs (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9HMO7PO0.htm) at the Whirlpool factory in Fort Smith, Arkansas, but at this point the company is not saying how many jobs will be lost. Whirlpool has been laying off workers at the plant steadily over the past few years as much of the work that was once done at the factory has been moved to a facility down in Mexico.

*Midcoast Aviation is closing its Savannah, Georgia factory by the end of the year. This move will affect approximately 362 jobs (http://www2.wsav.com/news/2010/jun/24/savannah-plant-closing-end-2010-ar-438906/).

*Federal-Mogul has been making headlamps for automobiles and for industrial use since 1954 in Boyertown, Pennsylvania, but now that era is coming to an end. Federal-Mogual has announced that the Boyertown plant will close by the end of the year and 70 jobs (http://www.wfmz.com/news/24841411/detail.html) will be lost.

*Duro Bag Manufacturing Co. plans to close its factory in Hudson, Wisconsin by October 22nd. As a result, 63 workers (http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2010/08/23/daily38.html) will be without jobs.

*Quad/Graphics is the second-largest commercial printer in the United States. It prints Newsweek, Rolling Stone, Sports Illustrated, Time and Wired magazines. Unfortunately, times are tough for Quad/Graphics and they have announced the closing of five plants (http://www.btobonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100810/MEDIABUSINESS/100819987/1001). The facilities to be closed are located in Mississippi, Ohio, Nevada and Tennessee. As a result of the closings, 2,200 workers will lose their jobs.

Scenes such as these are being repeated over and over and over across the United States.

What we are witnessing is the slow-motion deindustrialization of the United States.

This is very bad news for American workers, and indeed it is very bad news for all Americans, because the truth is that any economy that consumes far more than it produces does not have a bright future.

Helenjw

09-06-2010, 07:43 AM

Robert Reich, an economist, professor and former Clinton labor secretary has written a more thoughtful evaluation of the economic crisis that we face today without blaming either Bush or Obama for a crisis that began decades ago.

Welcome To The Worst Labor Day in History (http://www.businessinsider.com/welcome-to-the-worst-labor-day-in-history-2010-9)

Excerpt ...

1. The Origin of the Crisis

This crisis began decades ago when a new wave of technology — things like satellite communications, container ships, computers and eventually the Internet — made it cheaper for American employers to use low-wage labor abroad or labor-replacing software here at home than to continue paying the typical worker a middle-class wage. Even though the American economy kept growing, hourly wages flattened. The median male worker earns less today, adjusted for inflation, than he did 30 years ago.

But for years American families kept spending as if their incomes were keeping pace with overall economic growth. And their spending fueled continued growth. How did families manage this trick? First, women streamed into the paid work force. By the late 1990s, more than 60 percent of mothers with young children worked outside the home (in 1966, only 24 percent did).

Second, everyone put in more hours. What families didn’t receive in wage increases they made up for in work increases. By the mid-2000s, the typical male worker was putting in roughly 100 hours more each year than two decades before, and the typical female worker about 200 hours more.

When American families couldn’t squeeze any more income out of these two coping mechanisms, they embarked on a third: going ever deeper into debt. This seemed painless — as long as home prices were soaring. From 2002 to 2007, American households extracted $2.3 trillion from their homes.

Eventually, of course, the debt bubble burst — and with it, the last coping mechanism. Now we’re left to deal with the underlying problem that we’ve avoided for decades. Even if nearly everyone was employed, the vast middle class still wouldn’t have enough money to buy what the economy is capable of producing.

Where have all the economic gains gone? Mostly to the top. The economists Emmanuel Saez and Thomas Piketty examined tax returns from 1913 to 2008. They discovered an interesting pattern. In the late 1970s, the richest 1 percent of American families took in about 9 percent of the nation’s total income; by 2007, the top 1 percent took in 23.5 percent of total income.

It’s no coincidence that the last time income was this concentrated was in 1928. I do not mean to suggest that such astonishing consolidations of income at the top directly cause sharp economic declines. The connection is more subtle.

The rich spend a much smaller proportion of their incomes than the rest of us. So when they get a disproportionate share of total income, the economy is robbed of the demand it needs to keep growing and creating jobs.

What’s more, the rich don’t necessarily invest their earnings and savings in the American economy; they send them anywhere around the globe where they’ll summon the highest returns — sometimes that’s here, but often it’s the Cayman Islands, China or elsewhere. The rich also put their money into assets most likely to attract other big investors (commodities, stocks, dot-coms or real estate), which can become wildly inflated as a result.

Meanwhile, as the economy grows, the vast majority in the middle naturally want to live better. Their consequent spending fuels continued growth and creates enough jobs for almost everyone, at least for a time. But because this situation can’t be sustained, at some point — 1929 and 2008 offer ready examples — the bill comes due.

He concludes....

"Here’s the point. Policies that generate more widely shared prosperity lead to stronger and more sustainable economic growth — and that’s good for everyone."

"The rich are better off with a smaller percentage of a fast-growing economy than a larger share of an economy that’s barely moving. That’s the Labor Day lesson we learned decades ago; until we remember it again, we’ll be stuck in the Great Recession."

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 07:48 AM

Yeah, but it's easier to blame the president and for many, a lot more fun.

MarginallyInvolved

09-06-2010, 09:25 AM

Yeah, but it's easier to blame the president and for many, a lot more fun.

I realize he's just a simpleton who has not the slightest clue of what is going on around him, but he still bears the responsibility. It goes with the job. George Soros should have at least explained that much to him.

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 09:37 AM

Great read Dreamy and Helen...Thanks for the realistic the articles.
sans the large font.
As to going green...I'm there....bring it ON.

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 09:38 AM

-one "the"

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 10:36 AM

Sorry, MI, ain't gonna work.

Oh, and.......I forgive you! :1evil3: (Little humor can't hurt, now can it?)

MarginallyInvolved

09-06-2010, 10:54 AM

Sorry, MI, ain't gonna work.

My point exactly!! We need a real president.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 11:02 AM

You dufus. :)

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 02:32 PM

There is nothing wrong with President Obama...
he just happened to run and get elected
in one of the most turbulent times in our history since the
great depression.

He may not be perfect ....none of us are...
but I believe his intentions are genuine...
and I am proud to have a bi-racial President....
although...he said he decided to go with "black"
since he is identified as a black man.

He is a brilliant man a forward thinker ..and a visionary.

We desperately needed someone in that office who does
not think like the old and crusties in Washington....
nor is he afraid to walk his own path
in the face of adversity.

I am proud to say he is our President.

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 02:52 PM

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 03:19 PM

But the Senate is stalling.

Why does that not surprise me?

I've been watching HGTV House hunter International....
most of the day
The islands are sounding pretty good to me right now
ayre ayre

Especially since we are all going to be living in huts with
no gas or electric...lol

IceBlueEyes

09-06-2010, 03:57 PM

A lot of jobs are not coming back. We are fast approaching peak oil, if we aren't there already. This will change life as we know it. The carbon based economy is going to flatline. Global trade will fall off. We HAVE to go with alternative energy in a huge way. This means education has to accelerate to meet the newer technologies.

We need a totally new grid. The government has enough data to get started on that right now. That should create more jobs than anything else. But the Senate is stalling.

So what you're saying it that all the money Obama borrowed, all that money that he printed, and all the money he stimulated us with, did nothing at all? Cash for clunkers, cash for winterizing, cash cash cash for unions, cash cash cash for his pet banks, cash, cash, cash, for expansion of government, and still we have no jobs?
Largest tax hikes EVER in the country are ready to enforce this winter, and still no jobs? 2 years in office, and a non stimulated economy. Maybe another emergency money printing frenzie will do the trick! :irollers3
In fact the Obama administration just announced the recession was over! Yippee, everybody back to work tomorrow.
In Brazil
For Soros.< how much $ did he make by instructing Obama to kill the oil production in the US and send it to the company he just bought in Brazil?
Soros got stimulated.

:1tantrum: < American voter.

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 04:05 PM

Taxes are going back to previous levels. If the Republicans would get off the tax breaks for the upper 2%, then taxes would remain as they are for the rest of us. But they won't.

We borrowed to pay for those tax cuts. I don't think most people care if their taxes go up a few percentage points for earnings over $250k. There's not that many people that would be affected.

IceBlueEyes

09-06-2010, 04:13 PM

Let's see, if taxes go to their previous levels, will jobs go to their previous levels? Or will the middle class continue to be the target? :1snoop:

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by la gazza ladra
A lot of jobs are not coming back. We are fast approaching peak oil, if we aren't there already. This will change life as we know it. The carbon based economy is going to flatline. Global trade will fall off. We HAVE to go with alternative energy in a huge way. This means education has to accelerate to meet the newer technologies.

We need a totally new grid. The government has enough data to get started on that right now. That should create more jobs than anything else. But the Senate is stalling.

iBE...just what part of this did you NOT understand?
It has nothing to do with what Obama ....did.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 06:24 PM

But the Senate is stalling

They don't NEED one republican vote to pass or do anything.....just time to find enough pork to add in to feed/bribe those in their own party, that found out early on (Obama care) that, that's the way to get fed.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 06:34 PM

Sorry....Forgot to use my huge red font in that last post. My bad.

Taxes are going back to previous levels. If the Republicans would get off the tax breaks for the upper 2%, then taxes would remain as they are for the rest of us. But they won't.

We borrowed to pay for those tax cuts. I don't think most people care if their taxes go up a few percentage points for earnings over $250k. There's not that many people that would be affected.

Yea.....it would only affect the lions share of small business owners, whom, as anyone can see, from the size/type of closing businesses now making headlines, they are being affected the most.

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 07:16 PM

No it wouldn't. That's a lie promulgated by professional liars. It's a marginal tax. The increase is for the amount over $200k for a single person and $250k for a married couple.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/27/stephen-hayes/so-called-wealthy-are-actually-small-business-owne/

Only 1.5% of ALL of us make $250k or more per year, single or married, as of 2005 Census data. I'm sure it's less now. So it can't a lion's share of anything. The upper quintile that makes $100k or more only accounts for 15% of the population.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 08:13 PM

Typical progressive attitude, using sets of facts and figures, that NEVER takes the unintended consequences under consideration, when they speculate on solutions based on theory instead of the reality of experience.

Ok...so, the neighborhood landscaper may not see a direct increase in his taxes, nor will the corner pizza parlor or his wife's beauty shop....so what's the big deal....WE only want to squeeze hard enough to only make tears come to those filthy rich-cats' eyes.

But, as usual....bringing those tears, makes the rest of us pull our hair out....the landscaper has to lay off two of his three employees, cause the pizza parlor guy lost all the business he used to get (and the reason he opened his little pizzaria to begin with) from the all the NOW laid off blue collar workers who are in the unemployment line instead of inline to get their pizza lunch order......And forget about Peggy-Sue's Beauty Shop, home perms are much cheaper and alot of moms have decided it's better to save the money to buy the kiddies, Dick and Jane new shoes for school...than to have the perfect do and a set of acrylic nails that always seem to be a bother, and not exactly suited for cleaning house, that she used to pay a maid to do...................GET IT, yet???

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 08:19 PM

That's a lie promulgated by professional liars.

Ooops....Lest I be catagorized as a professional liar...........I forgot the landscaper....well, he had to lay off his employees, cause the guys who lost their jobs ---- you know, some of those the same unemployement lines --- out of work since the towns biggest employer moved to another state (or off shore all together) to take advantage of better tax rates and employer incentives..............well, those unemployed, mow their own yards and trim their own bushes now.........IF, they haven't already lost their homes to foreclosure.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 08:29 PM

Let me draw you a picture

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1356/dominoes.jpg

Ok...so I can't draw....but a picture is better than a thousand words

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 08:29 PM

I don't know any landscapers who make over $200k/year.....and I know a few very high end ones. If I told you whose properties they do, you'd recognize the names.

Gross receipts are not what is taxed. It's your income after expenses. If 3% is going to make or break you, you probably won't be in business for long.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 08:31 PM

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 08:35 PM

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 08:59 PM

These landscapers work for people that have plenty of freaking money. They're not going to stop landscaping services because there is a 3% tax cut expiration. And they're certainly not going to do it themselves. They're not going to clean their own houses either or color their own hair......

Not all landscaping businesses, started and grew their businesses dependent upon the top 1% (or whatever number you're throwing around today) of the population....But, I would think most all landscapers would find it hard to stay in business the bulk of their clients either lost their jobs, moved to another state for a job or transferred with their corporate employer when they decided to consolidate facilities. . . Unless they don't mind traveling hundreds of miles in between jobs.

IOW....even Joe the Plummer can't help when you're up shit creek without a paddle.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:02 PM

I'd like to see Dominoes deliver a pizza in thirty minutes, when the customer who used to work down the street at some factory in Hoboken, transferred to keep his job to the new plant in Cleveland.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:03 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't know what Cit means with this last post?

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:04 PM

BTW....I chose the Landscaper, as an example, because I was talking with a guy over the weekend that this exact same scenario played out. He actually had 6 guys in 2008 and is now down to himself and one other....

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:10 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't know what Cit means with this last post?

Dreamy5.....hasn't anyone told you that I'm part of a vast right wing conspiracy, that never intended you to ever understand.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:13 PM

If you say so.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:15 PM

If you say so.

I do indeed

MarginallyInvolved

09-06-2010, 09:15 PM

la gazza ladra

09-06-2010, 09:15 PM

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:21 PM

I do indeed

Ok, so you're saying a right wing conspiracy with the goal of being jerks exists.

What a sad world that is.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:28 PM

But I bet he doesn't make over 200k a year and neither do the people who he services/d.

We've had the tax cuts for 10 years and the trickling down hasn't worked. Why do you think more of the same will be better? More of the same borrowed from China.....

A logical person would not draw conclusions that higher taxes got us where we are, rather that other forces were the cause.....mainly that the upper quintile of the upper quintile has taken their money out of the system.

....and Joe the Plumber is a douche.

Joe the Plumber may very well be a douche....he's not the point, which is the point you keep missing.

The point......most people out of a job, couldn't give a rat's ass about any of this shit...they just want a fricken job. One where they can take care of their family and enjoy the basic simpler things in life. But, those with wealth-envy, are bound and determined to make it damn sure impossible for him to ever achieve even that much....Takes money to make money, making money, makes jobs. SIMPLE CONCEPT

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:30 PM

Ok, so you're saying a right wing conspiracy with the goal of being jerks exists.

What a sad world that is.

Whatever.................

If you want a better answer go spin your wheels researching it to death.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:35 PM

OK, the economy stinks. Obviously, that entirely the fault of liberals.

Or is it? Hmmmmmmmmmm, an article in the Atlantic Monthly (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2009/09/closing-the-book-on-the-bush-legacy/26402/) is mistaken, then. The poor fool who wrote it is very confused. He said in an article published 9-11-2009,

"Thursday's annual Census Bureau report on income, poverty and access to health care-the Bureau's principal report card on the well-being of average Americans-closes the books on the economic record of George W. Bush.

"It's not a record many Republicans are likely to point to with pride.

"On every major measurement, the Census Bureau report shows that the country lost ground during Bush's two terms. While Bush was in office, the median household income declined, poverty increased, childhood poverty increased even more, and the number of Americans without health insurance spiked. By contrast, the country's condition improved on each of those measures during Bill Clinton's two terms, often substantially."

Y'all better straighten him out and inform him it's all Obama's fault. It's your patriotic duty.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:35 PM

Whatever.................

If you want a better answer go spin your wheels researching it to death.

No need. It takes about 30 seconds and is what my children would call a "no-brainer." Seems to fit, too.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:36 PM

You'll never get through, Cit.

Until the top 1, 2, or 5% (far left to moderate), carry 100% of the tax burden, liberals will continue to wail about the unfairness of it all.

Facts, figures, and logic can't sway them.

LOL....sure gives one more empathy for what Helen Keller's teacher felt she was up against, eh?

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:37 PM

Good night, Irene.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:38 PM

No need. It takes about 30 seconds and is what my children would call a "no-brainer." Seems to fit, too.

Good...then there's nothing to keep you from wherever it was you said you were going.

Dreamy5

09-06-2010, 09:41 PM

They say memory is the second thing to go.

I forgive you.

Citnalta

09-06-2010, 09:44 PM

They say memory is the second thing to go.

I forgive you.

Good..good...good....now git, before you're late.

IceBlueEyes

09-06-2010, 09:50 PM

the lie is that it is possible to spend your way out of debt. :1wall:

RunFaYaLife

09-06-2010, 10:24 PM

'Gazza

you make me laugh!

Henny Penny... MI or IBE have no idea WHO they dealing with...
while busy beating their chests in their futile attempts to disqualify...
your statements.

*Chuckle*

MarginallyInvolved

09-06-2010, 10:38 PM

'Gazza

you make me laugh!

Henny Penny... MI or IBE have no idea WHO they dealing with...
while busy beating their chests in their futile attempts to disqualify...
your statements.

*Chuckle*

She makes me laugh, too

The rest of your post doesn't really make any sense. I suspect that's not the first time you've heard that...

Hepburn

09-06-2010, 11:30 PM

My hair was down to my butt....but it aint as of a few hours ago. I whacked it. Myself. Hair cut is 45 bucks. Like, I dont fucking think so. And if the salon has to lay someone off, thats their problem. 45 bucks????? For 10 minutes or less of cutting? Its like the rentals around here. People just dont get it. They are asking , for example, 1500 bucks per month for a 2 bedroom. Its empty. Its BEEN empty for 3 months. That is money they will never recoup. Never. Its gone. Forever. BUT, if they rented it at 800 per month, thats better than ZERO. Its a loss of what they normally get, but its also 800 bucks more than ZERO.
Same with salons. There is no way Im paying 45 bucks for a hair cut even if I were rich. So I did it myself. Looks great, too!

Powerhouse

09-06-2010, 11:37 PM

...45 bucks????? For 10 minutes or less of cutting? ...

I don't know... my hair ain't as long as your, but I ain't seen a 10 minute haircut since Sarge's Barber Shop back in the 70's.

Anytime I go it is about 30 minutes of chair time, and that is just a regular cut - not no shampoo or beard trim - a regular cut.

Hepburn

09-07-2010, 12:20 AM

I called the local salon that used to trim my hair. Just a trim is 30 bucks and she had to do it cuz I couldnt reach it myself in the back. called today, and to whack 8 inches off, it was 45 bucks. Not a layer. No shampoo (I wash it myself and go in with it already wet), no blow dry, no styling. just cut 8 inches off where its even. 45 bucks. Like I said..I dont think so. NOT.
So...I took the scissors and did it myself. Layered it too. And styled it. Then I blow dried it. Cost? Zero. Happiness on how it looks? Priceless.

Maybe I should go into the hair cutting biz. I do dennis' all the time.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 12:46 AM

She makes me laugh, too

The rest of your post doesn't really make any sense. I suspect that's not the first time you've heard that...

Doesn't need to make sense to you....
'Gazza knows what I am talking about.
:sm1115:

Citnalta

09-07-2010, 01:00 AM

Doesn't need to make sense to you....
'Gazza knows what I am talking about.
:sm1115:

Ahhh....so that's what's meant by your mind-meld nicknames.

http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/dewitt.htm

Citnalta

09-07-2010, 01:02 AM

Ooops..........that link was an error....

Doesn't need to make sense to you....
'Gazza knows what I am talking about.
:sm1115:

Ahhh....so that's what's meant by your mind-meld nicknames.

:111drummer02:

Hepburn

09-07-2010, 01:04 AM

shhhhhhhhhh. Do you hear that giant sucking sound?

thebigkahooouna

09-07-2010, 05:33 AM

yes,you can come out from under my desk now...http://www.revsroadhouse.com/Smileys/ExcellentSmileys1/yahoo.gifhttp://www.revsroadhouse.com/Smileys/ExcellentSmileys1/yahoo.gifhttp://www.revsroadhouse.com/Smileys/ExcellentSmileys1/yahoo.gif

IceBlueEyes

09-07-2010, 09:10 AM

But I bet he doesn't make over 200k a year and neither do the people who he services/d.

We've had the tax cuts for 10 years and the trickling down hasn't worked. Why do you think more of the same will be better? More of the same borrowed from China.....

A logical person would not draw conclusions that higher taxes got us where we are, rather that other forces were the cause.....mainly that the upper quintile of the upper quintile has taken their money out of the system.

....and Joe the Plumber is a douche.

Yeah, higher taxes got us where we are today. :1crazy2:
Obama wanting to take all of the wealth, from the companies that do well, has caused those companies to go somewhere else. And they took their jobs with them. Yay Brazil.

I see Obomb has cut his two year vacation short to tell us about his employment plan for the little people. I wonder where he'll be vacationing after he convinces us he's been on the job loss thingy since day one..... :1artist:

Oh and,
MI or IBE have no idea WHO they dealing with...
Whomever it is, they sure are dumb. > Please Obama, tell me more...........
:1rotfl2: :1rotfl2: :1rotfl2: :1rotfl2: :1rotfl2:

Hepburn

09-07-2010, 10:43 AM

thebigkahooouna

09-07-2010, 11:44 AM

I get that a lot http://www.revsroadhouse.com/Smileys/ExcellentSmileys1/sarcastic.gif

Hepburn

09-07-2010, 11:51 AM

I get that a lot http://www.revsroadhouse.com/Smileys/ExcellentSmileys1/sarcastic.gif
:1rotfl2:

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 12:28 PM

Oh and,
MI or IBE have no idea WHO they dealing with...
Whomever it is, they sure are dumb. > Please Obama, tell me more...........

I hate to break it to you IBE but it is the other way around.
You and your ilk are the uninformed....and you choose not to
listen because you all are so hell bent in staying that way...
it's gonna cost your ass eventually.

hebigkahooouna
yes,you can come out from under my desk now...

:1rotfl2:

MarginallyInvolved

09-07-2010, 01:11 PM

I hate to break it to you IBE but it is the other way around.
You and your ilk are the uninformed....and you choose not to
listen because you all are so hell bent in staying that way...
it's gonna cost your ass eventually.

:1rotfl2:

I have ilk? Cool.

I am not uninformed. I just don't like my country being turned into a welfare state. (I can't speak for the rest of my ilk as we have not been introduced yet. We should have a convention maybe. ILK Live in Vegas 2010!!!). But, part of being of my ilk is that I have to respect your desire to live in a cradle-to-grave government nanny state. And I can see you're not alone there, so you may very well be right. It's a very real possibility that people of your ideological bent will cost me my freedom, my future, my country, and quite possibly, my ass. Good luck with that, cause I'll go down swinging.

IceBlueEyes

09-07-2010, 01:25 PM

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 01:57 PM

And I guess I need to pay more for my electric too. We are all gonna pay

Your electric bill is set according to your local municipalities it has nothing to do do with the federal government.... so you need to take that one with them....good luck with that.

He's at it again! So before you believe that this new stimulus, (cause the last one just put us deeper in debt to China) really isn't a stimulas, that it's all about the small business, use your head. It's not. It's a campaign ploy.
In other words, here little business, a tax break for you. I'll get the money back by going after those bad oil companies/Soros.
that would be great if little business didn't have to by gasoline.

You really need to read the link that Gazza posted ..this is a Global problem...EVERY country is involved.

I'm taking this off of TSP because I do not see where Gazza posted it here.
what you all are bitching about is small beans compared to the big
picture.

http://www.thesidewalkprophets.com/forums/phpBB3/styles/thunder/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://www.thesidewalkprophets.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=63713#p63713)by Pezzini (http://www.thesidewalkprophets.com/forums/phpBB3/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1088) on Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:22 am
Leaked German Military Report Warns Of Apocalyptic Peak Oil Scenarios

The German army doesn't want you to know how freaked out it is about peak oil. But an internal report has leaked to the internet, with excerpts translated by Spiegel.
The report says there is "some probability that peak oil will occur around the year 2010 and that the impact on security is expected to be felt 15 to 30 years later."
Nightmare scenarios include:
Market failures: The authors paint a bleak picture of the consequences resulting from a shortage of petroleum. As the transportation of goods depends on crude oil, international trade could be subject to colossal tax hikes. "Shortages in the supply of vital goods could arise" as a result, for example in food supplies. Oil is used directly or indirectly in the production of 95% of all industrial goods. Price shocks could therefore be seen in almost any industry and throughout all stages of the industrial supply chain. "In the medium term the global economic system and every market-oriented national economy would collapse."
Global chain reaction: "A restructuring of oil supplies will not be equally possible in all regions before the onset of peak oil," says the study. "It is likely that a large number of states will not be in a position to make the necessary investments in time," or with "sufficient magnitude." If there were economic crashes in some regions of the world, Germany could be affected. Germany would not escape the crises of other countries, because it's so tightly integrated into the global economy.
Crisis of political legitimacy: The Bundeswehr study also raises fears for the survival of democracy itself. Parts of the population could comprehend the upheaval triggered by peak oil "as a general systemic crisis." This would create "room for ideological and extremist alternatives to existing forms of government." Fragmentation of the affected population is likely and could "in extreme cases lead to open conflict."
So is the US military preparing for peak oil? You bet.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-g ... z0yd5gIWta (http://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-german-military-report-warns-of-apocalyptic-peak-oil-scenarios-2010-9#ixzz0yd5gIWta)

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 01:59 PM

But, part of being of my ilk is that I have to respect your desire to live in a cradle-to-grave government nanny state.

MI...it has been that way for decades...

tabbinosity

09-07-2010, 02:10 PM

You really need to read the link that Gazza posted ..this is a Global problem...EVERY country is involved.

Don't I know it! Here in a country where blue collar workers living and working outside the capital are earning $500 US per month, gasoline is $4 USD per gallon and has been in that range for some time. Don't even ask about food prices -- only bread is truly cheap and that's because it's heavily subsidized by the government.

The currency here has been devalued so many times in the last ten years that it now takes three times as many rubles to equal one US dollar as it did in 2000.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 02:15 PM

But, part of being of my ilk is that I have to respect your desire to live in a cradle-to-grave government nanny state.
Dude you are all in a blather over something that has ALWAYS been.
It amazes me that people like you are all up in arms over "change" when
realistically there has not been that much change....
our country has gone up and down...since it was founded.

The only "change" is we now have a black President.
So?
He is still trying to do the best he can.
The "change" is we are all in this together now dude..
.and I am talking about all of the countries in the world.
Which in itself is not a brand new thing either.

You all need to apply the *THINK* part of your brain
before you pound those keys in fear of the unknown...
which results in your anxiety.. anger and hatred.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 02:18 PM

Don't I know it! Here in a country where blue collar workers living and working outside the capital are earning $500 US per month, gasoline is $4 USD per gallon and has been in that range for some time. Don't even ask about food prices -- only bread is truly cheap and that's because it's heavily subsidized by the government.

The currency here has been devalued so many times in the last ten years that it now takes three times as many rubles to equal one US dollar as it did in 2000.

Thanks Tabb
for putting that into perspective that just maybe someone here
will understand.

la gazza ladra

09-07-2010, 02:51 PM

Because of people like you and Gazza believing everything out of Obama's mouth, I'm paying for it now, and wait until Jan. when we get taxed more than this country has ever seen. And I guess I need to pay more for my electric too. We are all gonna pay, Run.
Note:
He's at it again! So before you believe that this new stimulus, (cause the last one just put us deeper in debt to China) really isn't a stimulas, that it's all about the small business, use your head. It's not. It's a campaign ploy.
In other words, here little business, a tax break for you. I'll get the money back by going after those bad oil companies/Soros. :1hug3:
that would be great if little business didn't have to by gasoline. :sm1141:

And would you mind telling me what buying gold has to do with our health care, cause somehow going after owners of gold got thrown in there with tonsilectomies. :sm1114:

The Bush tax cuts are going to expire and go back to Clinton era levels when the economy was rocking along. So they aren't even close to the biggest we've ever seen. You don't know what you're talking about.

We had to borrow money for those tax cuts, and the wars.

And yes, you're going to have to pay more for electricity, we all are. Hopefully that will force us to be more innovative and save where we can. I took a road trip and saw a series of huge wind turbines. They cost a bit of money to set up but have a low impact on the environment.

We have to have a new grid. N.O.W.. We lose half of energy in transmission.

The oil companies have been scarfing all of the alternate energy tech, peak oil is about to emerge. Screw them. This whole market crash was them extracting their last huge pile of money from the masses. They're set for generations, we'll need to get back to basics.

People like you who have a small smattering of knowledge about stuff spoon fed to you by crazees are what is ruining this country. I hope you have some living skills under your belt, because you're going to need them.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 03:33 PM

And yes, you're going to have to pay more for electricity, we all are. Hopefully that will force us to be more innovative and save where we can. I took a road trip and saw a series of huge wind turbines. They cost a bit of money to set up but have a low impact on the environment.

Speaking of...I was talking to my oldest today...and just wow!
[and this has nothing to do with Obama or his administration
just the dirty deals that go on in cities.]

He was telling me the behind the scenes deal that just went down
with his company which involved the sale of part of his Co. to the
city of Lubbock...he told me that will cause their energy bill to TRIPLE
because they now have the monopoly over the electric bills....and can and will charge as much as they want to.

That coupled with all of the other stuff they are going to have to
buy and the tariffs they will have to pay.
Although they are still buying a lot of their electricity from his Co.

I asked him well what about solar? Which he informed me that it is
not as good as it is made out to be...he cited one example of a HS
close to his house..he lives in another country....that is using a wind
turbine now...and even HERE...it is not generating enough electric to
power the school...which can't be very big..it is in a small rural area
and they still have to pay an electric bill.

I asked him well what about solar for your house as in panels and everything needed to make it totally?
He said he had even checked into it because his bill is so high because he is not on his companies electric but another county....and his peak bill is through the roof.

He said the way it works is if you plan on living in the house for a long time it would eventually pay off...but it [as we already know] costs depending on the size of the house a small fortune to implement it.
That is where the "eventually it would pay off" comes in.
Since you have to invest so much money to get it set up.

He had to go but I asked him...what about building your own solar
panels?...and he said we would talk about it later he was headed into
the Dr. to get a check up for an injury he had incurred earlier on the
job....from what I gleaned he has looked into that too.

Hell Gazza...mebbe we oughta get into the solar bdnezz.
;)

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 03:36 PM

We have to have a new grid. N.O.W.. We lose half of energy in transmission.

I do believe this is one of the talking points Obama touched on
when he was running for office....going green...incentives for solar
etc.

la gazza ladra

09-07-2010, 03:46 PM

Apparently the huge turbines generate enough electricity for 600 households. Those helical carbon fibre ones I like made in UK generate a good amount too. A big one would probably generate enough for a large household with extra to sell back on the grid. We have to have a new grid though.

Passive solar helps and is not expensive. Photovoltaic is more expensive but outputs are increasing every day. The cost would go down if more people installed it. You could easily heat hot water with a passive set up at your spread. It's mainly basic plumbing. I'd have to move or cut down 100 trees.

Geothermal is a good alternative with a heat pump set up.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 03:59 PM

Man....what gets me is I have been wanting to solar for years!
But no one was listening....
uuuhhhhhhhhh!

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 04:01 PM

Oh it costs down here....he estimated at least 30k for my smaller house
which is like 1800sq ft.

We need a go green Governor to replace the pimp we have now.

thebigkahooouna

09-07-2010, 06:23 PM

Thats the problem with solar or Geothermal,its so expensive,it would take you at least 10 years or more just to break even....not to mention the economy

MarginallyInvolved

09-07-2010, 06:28 PM

Dude you are all in a blather over something that has ALWAYS been.
It amazes me that people like you are all up in arms over "change" when
realistically there has not been that much change....
our country has gone up and down...since it was founded.

No, womb-to-tomb government caretakers have always been possible, if you wanted to life your life that way. What I'm saying is that I may now live long enough to see it become mandatory.

And to say there has been no change since this country was founded is ludicrous on every level.

The only "change" is we now have a black President.
So?
He is still trying to do the best he can.
The "change" is we are all in this together now dude..
.and I am talking about all of the countries in the world.
Which in itself is not a brand new thing either.

Out of curiosity, where have you ever seen me mention anything about Obama's race? I know the liberal handbook tells you that anyone who disagrees with his policies does so for racial reasons, but it's just not true.

I actually believe you that "he is trying to do the best he can". I'm just glad he's so fucking lousy at it, or this country could be in a much worse position.

You all need to apply the *THINK* part of your brain
before you pound those keys in fear of the unknown...
which results in your anxiety.. anger and hatred

:516: I don't care who you are, that shit is funny

I don't fear the unknown. What the left wants to do to this country has been tried time and again. And failed time and again.

But, if I want to see anger and hatred, all I have to do is mention the governor of Texas and watch you melt down.

thebigkahooouna

09-07-2010, 06:36 PM

He was telling me the behind the scenes deal that just went down
with his company which involved the sale of part of his Co. to the
city of Lubbock...he told me that will cause their energy bill to TRIPLE
because they now have the monopoly over the electric bills....and can and will charge as much as they want to.

We have only one power company here,but our bill never tripled.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs246.snc1/9327_1257667644542_1315153795_30731631_1600554_n.j pg

trouble1957

09-07-2010, 06:54 PM

:1rotfl2:

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 08:22 PM

How big is the town or city you live in BK?

And how crooked it the city government?

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 08:26 PM

I don't fear the unknown.

Then you must an exception to the rest of the righties over here.

But, if I want to see anger and hatred, all I have to do is mention the governor of Texas and watch you melt down.

No meltdown just stating the facts...about P'rick Perry...the longest
sitting Governor in the state of Texas....he's been there so long he
thinks he owns the place...that is too damn long.

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 08:32 PM

And to say there has been no change since this country was founded is ludicrous on every level.

Not really.

Out of curiosity, where have you ever seen me mention anything about Obama's race? I know the liberal handbook tells you that anyone who disagrees with his policies does so for racial reasons, but it's just not true.

Oh? Tell me you have not participated in any of the Obama is a Muslim threads or the he is not a citizen crap?
hmmmmmmmm.....you need to get your right wing hand book out..
you are not following the rulz.

BAD MI!

RunFaYaLife

09-07-2010, 08:35 PM

Now...could we please have some input about the state of the grid...
solar power and going green?

I saw on ehow.com...How to build your own solar system....since
The only thing I use a hammer for is to hang a picture or some such.
I wonder just hard it would be?

Dreamy5

09-07-2010, 09:18 PM

I saw something (http://stupidevilbastard.com/2010/09/bush-shows-his-appreciation/) recently that reminded me of this thread. (Conservatives will probably not like it.)

Hepburn

09-07-2010, 09:19 PM

lol.

MarginallyInvolved

09-07-2010, 09:30 PM

Not really.

Oh? Tell me you have not participated in any of the Obama is a Muslim threads or the he is not a citizen crap?
hmmmmmmmm.....you need to get your right wing hand book out..
you are not following the rulz.

BAD MI!

I may have participated in both threads, so what? Didn't you?

My views on whether or not he is a muslim have not changed. I still don't care. But, if I have to state an opinion, it would be that if his "Christianity" is based on 20 years listening to J Wright, I'd prefer him to be a muslim.

As far as citizenship goes, his is. No question. As far as I know, his mother was a US citizen when he was born, therefore he is too. Simple as that. My objections to him are on an ideological level, not a geographic one.

Dreamy5

09-07-2010, 09:33 PM

I may have participated in both threads, so what? Didn't you?

My views on whether or not he is a muslim have not changed. I still don't care. But, if I have to state an opinion, it would be that if his "Christianity" is based on 20 years listening to J Wright, I'd prefer him to be a muslim.

As far as citizenship goes, his is. No question. As far as I know, his mother was a US citizen when he was born, therefore he is too. Simple as that. My objections to him are on an ideological level, not a geographic one.

Damn, I wish more people felt like that!

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 03:46 AM

Why Obama Should Put Solar (Back) on the White House Roof

As I write this piece, we're in the midst of a (biodiesel) road trip to Washington, D.C., towing behind us an unwieldy piece of history: a solar panel off the roof of the Carter White House. It's decades old, though it still makes hot water just fine. In a sense, we're traveling backward -- which in another sense is what I think we're going to have to do for a while in the U.S. climate movement.

The bad news everyone knows. The strongest attempt ever to pass climate legislation through the U.S. Congress came up short earlier this summer. The inside-the-Beltway green groups took what seemed to be the route of least resistance: a very tame piece of climate legislation larded with special prizes for special interests. They worked it as hard as it could have been worked -- and in the end it didn't even come close. The fossil fuel industry and their allies in D.C. barely had to break a sweat shooting it down.

So -- barring some unforeseen development -- we're not going to see significant action on the federal level about climate for at least the next two years.

And that means we're far less likely to see significant international action on climate, since it's hard for other governments to muster the political will to make tough choices when the U.S. is punting.

So what do we do with those two years? I think we use them to build a movement, which explains the solar panel we're hauling south from Maine.

The story is painful even to consider. This panel went up on the White House roof in 1979, with then-president Jimmy Carter (in a wide tie, and with a bushy haircut) promising that it would still be there in the year 2000, producing hot water from the sun for whoever was then president. In fact, it didn't make it through the next decade -- it came down in the Reagan years, a symbol of our decision to turn away from the idea of limits and veer sharply down the path we've trod ever since.

But not everyone went along. Frugal folks at Unity College in Maine salvaged the panels, and put them up on the cafeteria, where they continued to produce hot water for the next three decades. Meanwhile, around the world other nations took the technology and went to work. Germany and Japan took over the lead in photovoltaic panels, but solar thermal technology like this became the special province of the Chinese.

I sat not long ago with Huang Ming, China's leading solar entrepreneur, in his space-age Sun Moon Mansion in Shandong Province looking over the stats: his HiMin Solar Energy Group has put up 60 million such systems across China--he estimated that when 250 million Chinese take a shower, the hot water is coming off their roofs. In a biting symbol of that passed torch, he keeps one of the Carter panels in his private museum.

There's no question what we should have spent the last few decades doing. But there's no point now in crying about why we didn't: the only job is to try to get back in the game, to start catching up.

Some of that means spending the money so that we can make the next technological discoveries. Many, including the Breakthrough Institute and Bill Gates, are calling for big increases in R and D funding, which might help us somehow claw our way back toward the front of the parade.

But catching up also means making use of the technology we already have, in ways both practical and symbolic. We're headed for the White House with this old panel, and with a promise from the U.S. company Sungevity that it will supply all the brand-new panels the president could ever want -- as long as he puts them up on his roof where everyone can see them. George W. Bush, amazingly enough, actually put some solar back in the White House grounds -- on the roof of a maintenance shed, and on, who knew, the Presidental Spa and Cabana. But since he didn't tell anyone, they didn't do much good. We want them up there on the roof, as visible as the White House garden, which helped boost seed sales 30 percent across the nation the year Michelle planted it.

So far, we haven't heard a word from the White House about whether they'll accept the gift and make the promise or not -- which, frankly, surprises me. I can't think of a clearer win for the president, a better reminder to the legions of young people who worked on his campaign that he is still focused on the future. He owes environmentalists more than he's given them -- by all accounts he decided not to push for the Senate legislation. He's up against tough odds in Congress, of course, given the obstructionist GOP. But they can't filibuster his roof.

What's especially poignant is that we have gotten promises from other, much less likely, world leaders -- Mohammed Nasheed, for instance, president of the entirely Muslim and quite poor Maldive Islands, the low-lying Indian Ocean nation that faces inundation from rising seas. He took the Sungevity offer, and he'll be putting solar panels on his roof on October 10 (10-10-10), the same day that thousands of groups around the world will be participating in a massive Global Work Party, putting up wind turbines and laying out bike paths. The same day we want Barack Obama, sleeves rolled up, out on his roof with a wrench.

The point of all these panels, of course, is not that we're going to solve climate change one roof at a time. (Obama is doing lots of good practical things already -- his "greening the government" effort is retrofitting federal buildings across the country with insulation, for instance). The point is that they help build the movement that we allowed to wither away.

Environmentalists lost sight of just how big a movement that would need to be. Too many groups convinced themselves that they could slide some legislation through Congress, make deals with industry, get things going without a fight. It was worth a try, but it didn't work--the fossil fuel industry, the most profitable enterprise known to man, beat us. And they will beat us again and again until there's a real, broad-based, popular, noisy movement underway in this country, a movement that can provide a currency (bodies, passion) equal to the currency the billionaire Koch Brothers can pony up to defeat climate legislation.

Some of that movement will go on at the local level, as we transform cities and towns and show what can be done. Some will be done on college campuses like Unity College, or Middlebury where I teach, which are showing the way forward. Some of it will be done in jails--I'd be very surprised if civil disobedience doesn't become a bigger part of this battle in the years ahead, if only because it's the tool we use to show our society how urgent, morally and practically, this crisis really is.

But some of it must be done symbolically. And there's no more symbolic piece of real estate on this continent than the White House. Let's hope that on the 10th of October it, at least, is transformed. It's been a long, hot summer, in the capitol as in much of the northern hemisphere. Let's make sure that next year that heat is put to some purpose -- heating the Obamas' bathtub, and helping power up a movement.

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/a_symbolic_solar_road_trip_to_reignite_a_climate_m ovement/2317/

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:31 AM

Why Obama Should Put Solar (Back) on the White House Roof

I know, I know......

......Cause Bush did back in 2002/2003 ????

http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/solarwhitehouse.htm

SOLAR ENERGY IS BACK
AT THE WHITE HOUSE http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/line.gif Special Editor's Note from the EcoMall: In 1980, the Reagan administration removed perfectly good, working solar thermal panels from the White House (these same solar collectors are still working at Unity College in Unity, Maine). The EcoMall spearheaded the Proposal to Solarize the White House (http://www.ecomall.com/activism/whhouse.htm), forming "The Solar Campaign" with other solar energy advocates, and posted an alert at our site asking our visitors to e-mail The White House urging them to use renewable energy technologies on the White House grounds. We are happy to report that 23 years after the previous solar panels were removed, two solar thermal systems and a 9 kW photovoltaic (PV) solar electricity system have returned to the White House.

Since September 2002, a grid of 167 solar panels on the roof of a maintenance shed has been delivering electricity to the White House grounds. Another solar installation has been helping to provide hot water. Yet another has been heating the water in the presidential pool.
The impetus behind implementing the solar roof was that a roof on the White House grounds had to be replaced anyway, and it made economical as well as environmental sense to incorporate solar energy. It was time to replace the roof on what is called "The Pony Shed", a maintenance building that replaced the stable that once housed Macaroni, a pony owned by President Kennedy's daughter, Caroline.
It was actually the National Park Service's decision to utilize a solar energy system on the White House grounds, similar to other solar installations made by the Park Service throughout the country. The Park Service, which is responsible for the building, had already mandated that any refurbishments of its facilities should incorporate environmentally-friendly design whenever possible.
Other sources: The New York Times

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:36 AM

Off course.....Damn, Bush didn't tell anybody....

Jan. 8, 2003--Evergreen Solar, Inc. today announced the installation of a 9 kW photovoltaic (PV) system at the White House for the National Park Service.
The new solar roof in Washington, D.C. is the first solar electric project on the White House grounds.
James Doherty, the architect and project manager at the National Park Service Office for White House Liaison, said, "We believe in these technologies, and they've been working for us very successfully. The National Park Service as a whole has long been interested in both sustainable design and renewable energy sources. We also have a mission to lower our energy consumption at all our sites, and we saw an opportunity to do both at the White House grounds."
"The Park Service is supporting the use of clean, renewable energy from the sun by overseeing this installation. It's an important milestone in building awareness for solar energy usage in residential and commercial buildings, and a step in the right direction in promoting energy independence," said Steven J. Strong, President of Solar Design Associates and an internationally noted solar advocate. "Sustainable, environmentally responsive solar electric systems have been in use from Maine to California for three decades, but there is something special about an installation at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue."
Solar Design Associates designed and oversaw the installation, which was placed on the roof of the main building used for White House grounds maintenance. The PV system directly feeds solar-generated power into the White House grounds' distribution system, providing electricity wherever it is needed. Two solar thermal systems, one to heat the pool and spa and one to provide domestic hot water, were also installed.
The grid-tied PV system consists of 167 solar panels manufactured by Evergreen Solar that cover the roof of the maintenance facility. The entire system installation was completed over a three-day period and includes a data acquisition system for monitoring the performance of the array and its ancillary electronic components.
Solar Design Associates selected Evergreen Solar to supply the PV panels for the project due to the superior quality of the panels and the fact that they were made in America. Mr. Strong remarked, "Evergreen Solar is the classic, home-grown success story, where a small group of dedicated individuals, starting from modest beginnings in a 'garage,' proved the commercial viability of their technology, and subsequently have become a significant player in the global solar market."
"We are very pleased to see this kind of governmental support for solar electricity. Evergreen Solar's panels were chosen for this installation by Steven Strong, one of the world's most respected solar designers and a true pioneer in the industry," commented Mark A. Farber, President and Chief Executive Officer of Evergreen Solar. "We hope the success of this project will spur future applications of highly reliable, pollution-free solar power. Whether it is on a single residence or a commercial building, solar electricity is an important option in the quest for energy independence."
Written by: Evergreen Solar

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:37 AM

White House Turns Up Heat With Solar Energy at Spa
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/solarwhite.jpgWith little fanfare, the Bush administration has installed three solarenergy systems on the grounds of the White House.
It happened last August, when, over the course of three days, the WhiteHouse had 167 solar energy panels placed atop a maintenance buildingoutside the residence. On two other buildings -- an adjoiningmaintenance building and the president's cabana -- systems wereinstalled that will help heat the water for, among other uses, thepresidential pool and spa.
None of the solar energy systems are visible from the street -- youwould have to climb to near the top of the adjacent Eisenhower ExecutiveOffice Building to see them. The systems were designed by Solar DesignAssociates of Massachusetts.
The White House and the National Park Service, which oversee theprojects, could not say how much power the systems are generating -- orhow much money they are saving the public. But the Park Service and theSolar Energy Industries Association, a trade association, agreed theprojects are small.
With Washington's climate and the pitch of the building roofs consideredless than ideal, the output of any system would be limited, said one ofthe project's managers.
"I think the symbolic nature of this exceeds the actual kilowattsproduced," said SEIA spokesman Michael Paranzino.
That was probably the case during the energy crisis of the 1970s, whenPresident Jimmy Carter donned a sweater, turned down his thermostat --and had a solar-powered water system installed. It was later removed byPresident Ronald Reagan, who shipped the panels off to Unity College inMaine, where they still heat the water for the school's cafeteria.
But if the new systems are primarily symbolic, no one, it seems, hastold the White House. President Bush, who uses solar power on his ranchin Texas, has yet to trumpet the little-noticed panels, as evidence,perhaps, of his support for renewable energy.
A spokeswoman for the White House said the administration considered thechanges an internal matter that it did not need to publicize.
Written By: Brian Faler, Special to The Washington Post, Monday, February 3, 2003; Page A21

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:39 AM

Damn, Bush.....never told any of us anything about all this.
Solar at the White House
Solar energy has returned to the White House complex. While the White House has kept pretty quiet about it, three solar installations were completed last summer on White House buildings and are now generating renewable power and hot water. Here are the details:
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/WH-Solar-Water.jpg
White House cabana showing flush-mount solar water heating system. http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/WH-Install-3.jpg
Photos: Evergreen Solar, Inc. Installing PV panels on a National Park Service maintenance building at the White House.

In July and August, three solar energy systems, designed by Steven Strong of Solar Design Associates in Harvard, Massachusetts, were installed on two separate White House buildings. The first of these, a large 8.75 peak-kilowatt photovoltaic (PV) system, was installed on the National Park Service maintenance building located in the southwest corner of the 16-acre (6.5 ha) White House grounds. This system consists of 167 EC-51 PV modules, each rated at 51 watts, manufactured by Evergreen Solar of Marlboro, Massachusetts. Three 2,500-watt Sunny Boy inverters, provided by SMA Americas (a division of the German manufacturer SMA), convert this DC electricity into AC power that is fed into the White House electricity grid. On the same building, a residential-scale solar water heating system was installed to provide hot water for landscape maintenance personnel. This system is comprised of two 4' x 8' (1.2 x 2.4 m) flat-plate collectors made by SunEarth, Inc., of Ontario, California. These panels were installed using a typical stand-off mount in a drain-back configuration (for more on solar water heating.
The third installation is a five-panel, building-integrated solar hot water system on the White House cabana next to the presidential pool and spa. This system is integrated into a terne-coated, standing-seam copper roof. The inset design of the panels provides a relatively flush profile (see photo). Hot water produced by this system heats a hot tub and shower, with any extra energy going into the outdoor pool. The absorber plates for these panels were made by SunEarth, but the rest of the system was site-manufactured for better integration with the roof.
The PV system installation (by Aurora Energy of Annapolis, Maryland) went extremely well, according to Dr. Rex D'Agostino, Vice-President of Marketing and Sales at Evergreen. All three systems were completed and commissioned before Labor Day, and are believed to be working very well, according to D'Agostino. Performance data from the PV system is being collected, but Evergreen Solar has not yet seen it.
Working with the Park Service went very smoothly, according to Steven Strong. "They set up a brisk schedule involving many different operations and kept things moving," he told EBN. "Despite the logistical challenges, we were done a week early."
James Doherty, an architect with the National Park Service White House Liaison Office, managed the solar installations. "We're very happy with the product and how it's working for us," Doherty told EBN. The Park Service is always looking for opportunities to promote renewable energy and sustainable design, according to Doherty, and a few years ago they decided to take advantage of the next opportunity available to "pursue that mission" at the White House.
Doherty admits that the maintenance building isn't an ideal candidate for solar, since it is intentionally somewhat hidden by trees. He worked with Strong to identify the largest surface area available for the PV installation. He estimates that "the PV array to date has only generated slightly in excess of 1,000 kilowatt-hours." The system was designed so that even if the building has to be partially rebuilt or reroofed, the PV system can be removed and reinstalled, according to Doherty.
When asked why there hasn't been a bigger splash made about these installations, Doherty said that the Park Service doesn't like to advertise what it does at the White House. "We call it 'silent stewardship,'" he said. "We have always sought to stay in the background and not compete with what the White House does."
Strong considers it a privilege to have been asked to design and install solar systems at the White House. "Each solar roof is another small but important step toward greater energy self-reliance," he told EBN. "I would hope that these installations will lead to a broader acceptance of solar energy as a way to reduce our dependence on foreign oil." - AW
Written by: Environmental Building News, by Alex Wilson

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:43 AM

Good try by Huffpo-spinnettes...........but, if little ole'me knew about what Bush did, I think there's likely many more and much more vocal than I (well, maybe not as skiled in the use of huge red fonts) that aren't going to let Obama's public relations machine make him out to be someGREEN-GAWD.

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 04:46 AM

skiled = skilled

one 'l' looked like two .... wouldn't have made that error if I'd used bolder fonts. ;)

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 04:50 AM

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 05:03 AM

Actually, the article mentioned the Bush solar installations.

I'm glad to see you're utilizing your caffeine intake to great effect though.

It's the symbology of the thing though. I know there are armed spooks/ops guys on the main roof, but they should be able to put something up there.

I don't know why, you think I never read your links/articles posted....there wouldn't be much point in reading the thread, without reading what's posted.

Anyway....I know, the article mentioned Bush's solar installations....but, it's HOW he mentioned it, that was the spin machine at work. I dunno, caffeine of not....I don't like being manipulated by "spin doctors"....and thought that was one of YOUR biggest gripes about Fox News. Guess it's only when the spin is what you want to believe. eh?

And from just what I copied and pasted....it certainly didn't look like the project was just a little solar panel they plugged in like an electrical space heater. If you can't see the SPIN in that, then....shut up about Beck and Fox News.

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 05:07 AM

It's the symbology of the thing though. I know there are armed spooks/ops guys on the main roof, but they should be able to put something up there.

Then why in the hell, didn't they write some sort of mandate for government buildings to be required to be built (if built with tax dollars) with solar panels? You'd think they could have squeezed something like that into one of the thousands of pages of guidelines the put in that stimulus package.

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 05:10 AM

Citnalta

09-08-2010, 05:14 AM

Bush didn't get to choose what stories were stressed or which ones would catch on. The stupidest things knock stuff off the front page, like balloon boy or Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan.

Ain't that the truth......I think the FCCA (or whatever their letters are) oughta start fining excessive use of airtime on some of the stupid crap they go on about ad nauseaum.

You seem paranoid.

What do you mean, I seem paranoid?

:sm1115: I am paranoid!

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 05:19 AM

Then why in the hell, didn't they write some sort of mandate for government buildings to be required to be built (if built with tax dollars) with solar panels? You'd think they could have squeezed something like that into one of the thousands of pages of guidelines the put in that stimulus package.

The stimulus package was only for stuff that was already planned and approved but not funded.

I agree that it would be a good idea. As it is, DC needs regular maintenance because Bush did none. [I have a friend that has a highly specialized skill and he's in the know about these things].

But I agree, I'd like to see those helical turbines on every light post on 270 and 495 and all over the district......and solar.....although we aren't in a high solar zone.

There's a gas station in Olney that has solar. There are several Post Offices that have geothermal systems. The world's only solar breeder is right down the street from me, right in the WH's back yard. BP built an addition on it, and then tore the addition down....it was an $18M dollar build. And the day Obama gave his speech on Alternative Energy, they started taking the dozers to it.

thebigkahooouna

09-08-2010, 05:46 AM

The world's only solar breeder is right down the street from me, right in the WH's back yard. BP built an addition on it, and then tore the addition down....it was an $18M dollar build. And the day Obama gave his speech on Alternative Energy, they started taking the dozers to it.

About 3 or 4 years ago when I took my wife to the station,I could see about
15 spaces for electric cars.There was an insert of the side of the vehicle where you hook up to charge the battery.When you got to the station,you hook up your car again to charge the battery.That lasted about 2 years and then all of a sudden they were all gone.

thebigkahooouna

09-08-2010, 05:56 AM

How big is the town or city you live in BK?

And how crooked it the city government?

I live in East Fishkill,N.Y. about 75 miles north of NYC.In area wise,its very big.
There are several hamlets in East Fishkill.We have an IBM plant here.In the 80's it was the biggest in the world.How crooked is the government? I have no idea,they wont tell me :)

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 06:02 AM

That's a beautiful area.

thebigkahooouna

09-08-2010, 06:04 AM

You've been up here?

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 06:09 AM

No. I just said that to get on your good side.:1rotfl2:

Of course I've been there.

thebigkahooouna

09-08-2010, 07:07 AM

LOL okay-thought maybe you heard about the place,like I heard about the Inner Harbor before I went there.

MarginallyInvolved

09-08-2010, 11:38 AM

I do believe this is one of the talking points Obama touched on
when he was running for office....going green...incentives for solar
etc.

You're right. I think it was right in between "The most transparent adminstration in history" and "Lobbyists have no place in my administration"

RunFaYaLife

09-08-2010, 04:28 PM

The story is painful even to consider. This panel went up on the White House roof in 1979, with then-president Jimmy Carter (in a wide tie, and with a bushy haircut) promising that it would still be there in the year 2000, producing hot water from the sun for whoever was then president. In fact, it didn't make it through the next decade -- it came down in the Reagan years, a symbol of our decision to turn away from the idea of limits and veer sharply down the path we've trod ever since.Carter was highly underrated.

RunFaYaLife

09-08-2010, 04:34 PM

I sat not long ago with Huang Ming, China's leading solar entrepreneur, in his space-age Sun Moon Mansion in Shandong Province looking over the stats: his HiMin Solar Energy Group has put up 60 million such systems across China--he estimated that when 250 million Chinese take a shower, the hot water is coming off their roofs. In a biting symbol of that passed torch, he keeps one of the Carter panels in his private museum.

There's no question what we should have spent the last few decades doing. But there's no point now in crying about why we didn't: the only job is to try to get back in the game, to start catching up.Gawd...that really says a lot for our politicians that pretend like they
care about "our future".

RunFaYaLife

09-08-2010, 04:41 PM

What's especially poignant is that we have gotten promises from other, much less likely, world leaders -- Mohammed Nasheed, for instance, president of the entirely Muslim and quite poor Maldive Islands, the low-lying Indian Ocean nation that faces inundation from rising seas. He took the Sungevity offer, and he'll be putting solar panels on his roof on October 10 (10-10-10), the same day that thousands of groups around the world will be participating in a massive Global Work Party, putting up wind turbines and laying out bike paths. The same day we want Barack Obama, sleeves rolled up, out on his roof with a wrench.That is poignant yet very interesting...Obama
needs get with the program on 10-10-10.
It appears even those "Muslim's" you all love to hate ....can see the
writing on the wall about our GLOBAL future.

I'm glad to see you're utilizing your caffeine intake to great effect though.That was just damn funnY! :1rotfl2:

toys-to-treasures

09-08-2010, 09:00 PM

One of the biggest problems with the democrats version of stimulus is that it is always targeted to certain sectors with winners and losers. Republican version of Stimulus tend to give the money (tax breaks or subsidies) to everybody and let them spend it as they see fit. With democrats it's always we'll give tax breaks to this kind of business spending but not that kind of business spending. There is no cookie cutter stimulus that works for every sector of business. The best thing is to allow businesses to spend the money as needed on a business by business basis instead of the government telling them what to do.

The stimulus is a failure becuase it's too targeted to a political (green jobs, union jobs or whatever), not a economic improvement agenda.

toys-to-treasures

09-08-2010, 09:05 PM

Carter was highly underrated.

I don't know how you can underrate possibly the worst president of the last 90 years and in top 5 worst presidents ever. He failed spectacularily in both domestic and foreign policy. If he had been any good at all Reagan never would have won. The economy was in a worse mess in 1980 than it was in 2009.

toys-to-treasures

09-08-2010, 09:07 PM

"One of the biggest problems with the democrats version of stimulus"

The above should have read:

"One of the biggest problems with the democrats version of stimulus" and tax breaks

la gazza ladra

09-08-2010, 09:35 PM

IceBlueEyes

09-08-2010, 10:32 PM

According to Henry Kissinger, China is getting reluctant to lend us any more money. They don't think we're good for it. So as we go wandering along, spending and printing money, where do you think the next stimulus should come from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efLiyCG9WOA

or:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2010/07/05/bil20705.htm

RunFaYaLife

09-09-2010, 12:14 AM

Can you really blame them?

RunFaYaLife

09-09-2010, 12:19 AM

Stop picking on Jimmy Carter

He suffers from an egregiously unfair reputation. His record, though, shows he was quite a good president.

Oakton, Va.

In this season of new resolutions, Americans would do well to rethink their perceptions of Jimmy Carter. President Carter has suffered the misfortune of having his legacy almost entirely shaped by his political enemies rather than by objective reality or a basic sense of American fairness.
Today, Carter is caricatured as a weak-kneed, sweater-wearing puritan who struggled with lust in his heart, presided over a malaised America, and micromanaged even the scheduling of the White House tennis courts. More recently, he's taken heat for his blunt portrayal of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians.
What an egregiously undeserved reputation. Carter wasn't just a "good man who got in over his head," as critics say. He was in fact quite a good president.
He kept us out of endless wars. He protected the Alaskan wilderness (Sen. Gaylord Nelson (D) of Wisconsin once told me that "Carter was the greatest environmental president the country ever had.") He promoted a visionary energy policy. He countered the Soviet military threat. And since he left office, he has persistently promoted the cause of peace around the world. The landmark Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty he fashioned remains in force today.
Against the backdrop of an unnecessary trillion-dollar war in Iraq, it is instructive to recall how Carter avoided a similar morass when he negotiated the Panama Canal treaties, for which he was excoriated by Ronald Reagan's Republicans. When he left office, he was able to say with Thomas Jefferson "[D]uring the period of my administration not a drop of the blood of a single citizen was shed by the sword of war."
In the public mind, Carter continues to be judged as "ineffectual." Yet he started that treaty ratification process with fewer than 40 votes of the 67 needed. Pentagon generals advised him it would require 100,000 troops, rivers of blood, and untold treasure if the US did not return sovereignty of the canal to Panama.
Carter was keenly aware that retaining US control of the canal, as Reagan demanded, might result in another Vietnam-like conflict. Today, looking at America's open-ended wars in Southwest Asia, Carter should be thanked for his wisdom and vision.
President-elect Obama, take note: No matter how loud the clamor for war, if your instincts tell you it's wrong, remember Carter and don't be stampeded onto unnecessary battlefields.
Carter was truly the prophet without honor in his own land on energy policy. Thirty years ago, he preached conservation and alternative energy. A profligate nation – not to mention Congress and the vested interests – ridiculed him. Today, his ideas are mainstream.
Obama take note: The American public believes it has a constitutional right to cheap gasoline. Even with gas prices topping $4 a gallon in 2008, the bestselling vehicles are still gas-guzzling pickups.

Reagan Republicans disingenuously claimed credit for much of America's long-range military buildup that helped win the cold war. But it was Carter who proposed deployment of 200 MIRVed MX missiles in hardened silos to counter an unbridled Soviet buildup. (Under Reagan, only 50 were actually deployed.) Cruise missiles and the B-2 Stealth bomber technology were also born under Carter.
To the Russians, the most terrifying weapon the Americans ever deployed was the intermediate-range Pershing missile, which had a flight time of 10 minutes to Moscow from NATO bases in Germany. Carter agreed to deploy that weapons system. The irony is that Carter's hawkish leanings later in his administration alienated many in the party of George McGovern and, ultimately, Carter was crippled at least as much by Democratic liberals as by Republicans.
Carter was one of the most brilliant presidents we've ever had. Former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill wrote that Jimmy Carter was the "smartest public official" he'd ever known. Yet he was portrayed as a Southern bumpkin, and he battled other ugly prejudices. Some Northern Democrats simply could never stomach an openly religious Southern Baptist in the White House. Carter talked like Lyndon Johnson, prayed like Billy Graham, and farmed peanuts in the heart of the old Confederacy. These regional bigotries also colored much of the news reporting. Carter was maligned for events and forces over which a president has little control: inflation fueled by soaring oil prices stoked by the Arabs and OPEC.
Obama take note: American politics is as much about bigotries as it is about issues.
The worst thing about Carter is that he was politically tone deaf. But even that's not true: He simply prized doing what was right over what was popular.
Oh yeah, and that infamous "malaise" speech? He never actually used the word. And his text remains prophetic:
"In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities, and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption.... But we've discovered that owning things and consuming things does not satisfy our longing for meaning....
Little by little we can and we must rebuild our confidence. We can spend until we empty our treasuries, and we may summon all the wonders of science. But we can succeed only if we tap our greatest resources – America's people, America's values, and America's confidence."
When we consider the record of the past eight years, Carter's performance – and his vision for America – positively shines. So, let's make a national New Year's resolution: Stop denigrating Carter.
• Walter Rodgers is a former senior international correspondent for CNN.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0105/p09s03-coop.html/%28page%29/2

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 04:27 AM

What was that General Electric jingle...? GE...We bring good things to light?

Mining companies aim to export coal to China through Northwest ports
Published: Wednesday, September 08, 2010, 9:05 PM http://media.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/photo/coalplantjpg-24f6418695aebf5e_large.jpg
View full size (http://media.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/photo/coalplantjpg-24f6418695aebf5e.jpg)
BRENT WOJAHNPortland General Electric
has proposed closing Oregon's only coal-fired power plant, in Boardman, by 2020, part of a slow-growth picture for U.S. coal consumption. But coal companies say prospects are good for
exporting Western coal thanks to surging Asian demand.

While Oregon works to shut its only coal-fired electricity plant and reduce the state's greenhouse gas emissions, global mining companies are increasingly bullish about exporting that very same coal through Northwest ports to China.

According to Peabody Energy, "Coal's best days are ahead," fueled in part by exports of coal from the Powder River Basin in Montana and Wyoming that Portland General Electric taps for its Boardman plant. Peabody says it hopes to announce a West Coast terminal by year's end.

Ambre Energy, an Australian coal company, is exploring mine acquisitions in the basin and the purchase of the 416-acre Chinook Ventures port site in Longview, Wash., for a bulk export terminal.

The Port of Portland says it doesn't have the space for coal exports in the short-term, but its consultants cited coal as a potential long-term market if it adds terminals on West Hayden Island.

Environmentalists aren't happy. They vow to fight any new Northwest coal export terminals on global warming and pollution grounds -- at the same time they're lobbying to close Boardman and Washington's only coal-fired plant in Centralia and celebrating laws in Oregon and Washington that effectively bar new coal plant construction.

Coal is the dirtiest fuel available, says Brett VandenHeuvel, Columbia Riverkeeper's executive director.

Global warming isn't limited by geography. Mercury from coal burning in China travels on trade winds to the Northwest.

"Before we blindly start shipping coal, we need to think about what's coming back to our shores," VandenHeuvel says.

Privately held Chinook Ventures didn't respond to requests for comment. Valerie Harris, director of marketing for the nearby public Port of Longview, says the port is "in the investigative stages of handling coal."

"We get two to three to four calls every week to prospect coal business through our facility," she says. "It's definitely increasing, and it's driven by China's consumption."
http://www.oregonlive.com/environmen...es_are_fo.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2010/09/global_mining_companies_are_fo.html)

http://a.imageshack.us/img375/5052/53855086.jpg

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 04:31 AM

http://a.imageshack.us/img195/1985/01full600.jpg

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 04:44 AM

GE Light Bulb Plant to Close: Congress, Big Government Destroys 200 More Jobs

September 9, 2010
By Mondoreb (http://deathby1000papercuts.com/author/mondoreb/)
Big Government doesn't create jobs: it destroys them.
200 more jobs were lost in Winchester, VA at the GE light bulb plant.
Democrats–and some Republicans–have been asking the question, “Why don’t we make anything in this country anymore?”
The answer is staring those people in the face when they look in the mirror. The policies of economic illiterates, environmental ninnies and Keynesians have destroyed millions of jobs in the USA over the last 40 years.
Those policies destroyed 200 more jobs yesterday.
Light bulb factory closes; End of era for U.S. means more jobs overseas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090706933.html) WINCHESTER, VA. – The last major GE factory making ordinary incandescent light bulbs in the United States is closing this month, marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison’s innovations in the 1870s.
The remaining 200 workers at the plant here will lose their jobs.
These 200 people’s jobs were sacrificed on the altar of Al Gore’s Global Warming Scam. These were 200 inconvenient jobs. China will be more than happy to put people to work doing what the men and women in Winchester VA could have done.
An ignorant, eco-pandering Congress in 2007 also killed these 200 jobs–and hundreds more that were murdered before yesterday.
Be sure and thank them in November. What made the plant here vulnerable is, in part, a 2007 energy conservation measure passed by Congress that set standards essentially banning ordinary incandescents by 2014. The law will force millions of American households to switch to more efficient bulbs.
200 jobs in Virginia were sacrificed so that Congressmen and Senators could campaign on how “environmentally responsible” they were; how “green” they were.
The United States is a rich country with hard-working well-skilled people. Left to their own devices, the country would again return to an industrial powerhouse–if it weren’t for the machinations of Big Government and the army of fools who serve them.
Every economically-ignorant “journalist” who writes about jobs moving overseas always mentions the cost of labor–as if that were the only input in the cost of goods. Almost never does the writer write about the crippling costs of Big Government: the taxes, the fees, the regulations, the mind-numbing paperwork and inefficiencies.
J.E. Dyer noticed, too.
The stupidity of politics: Green fables, jobs, and the incandescent bulb (http://hotair.com/archives/2010/09/08/the-stupidity-of-politics-green-fables-jobs-and-the-incandescent-bulb/) Hot Air’s headlines linked a Washington Post piece today on the closing of the last US manufacturing plant for the humble incandescent light bulb. The article’s focus is on the “irony” of US engineers having come up with the compact-fluorescent lightbulb (CFL), as well as the way to manufacture it efficiently, but the actual manufacturing jobs – which are labor-intensive – having migrated overseas.
Of course, only if you’re a Washington Post writer does it seem ironic to you that manufacturers move their plants to where taxes are lower and all employer costs cheaper. But the article has other unintended ironies – or, at least, fatuous and utterly unexamined statements. The most important one occurs in paragraph 6, near the beginning, and it comes in for critical scrutiny not at all. In fact, it’s expressed in vague, impressionistic terms that ought to get a journalist horsewhipped by a serious editor. Here’s what WaPo tells us about the US decision to force the phase-out of the incandescent bulb:
The resulting savings in energy and greenhouse-gas emissions are expected to be immense.
Savor that for a moment. These 14 words are the sum total of the justification offered in the WaPo narrative for all the economic perturbation the story then proceeds to describe. The climax of the tale is a bunch of Americans losing their manufacturing jobs, as a whole industry is reorganized and transformed. But WaPo’s writers examine everything about this story except the original reasoning for the political decision.
Dyer then goes on to smash the writer’s entire premise in the Post’s article–and the ignorant number of government follies that had to take place before those 200 workers in Virginia lost their jobs.
Ann Althouse (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2010/09/small-sad-exit-for-product-and-company.html) summed up the problem of Big Govenment getting in the way of consumers who want to buy a product and companies who want to sell it. Oh! It is so sad. It is doubly sad. The workers are losing their jobs, and we, who love traditional light bulbs are being deprived of a product we want. And those vile CFL bulbs? They’re made in China.
Thanks a lot, Congress.
Now, how many incandescent bulbs do I need to stockpile last until the end of my life? I need to buy them before 2014….
200 workers in Winchester VA will be hitting the bricks, looking for employment because Congressmen wanted to look cool to the environmental lobbyists and the self-important, self-indulgent Econ-weenies.
500 coal miners in Clay County (http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/2009/12/08/consol-to-lay-off-500-miners-but-who-is-to-blame/) were threatened with losing their livelihoods when the EPA pulled already-active permits for their mine. Thanks to other political pressure–who knew you had to be politically-connected just to keep your job?–the men are still working.
For now.
Big Government doesn’t create jobs: it destroys them. That’s all it can do.

la gazza ladra

09-09-2010, 05:19 AM

The thing about light bulbs is: they are crap. They used to be made better and last longer. You can't recycle them. They could be more efficient. But they aren't. They're cheap crap. So now we have these awful CFL things being phased in which are worse crap. Poisonous filled crap, can't break them without a defcon4 suit crap.

I was in Winchester just the other day.

thebigkahooouna

09-09-2010, 06:35 AM

Where Patsy Cline comes from

IceBlueEyes

09-09-2010, 11:39 AM

RunFaYaLife

09-09-2010, 11:41 AM

Patsy Cline?
I *heart* her!

RunFaYaLife

09-09-2010, 11:44 AM

The best way to keep one of those new "efficiency" light bulbs working a long time is never turn it off...or rarely if you have to.

Weird huh?

Dreamy5

09-09-2010, 11:53 AM

Patsy Cline...ugh.

RunFaYaLife

09-09-2010, 11:57 AM

You do not love her voice?

Something is seriously wrong wit' you. ;)

Dreamy5

09-09-2010, 01:05 PM

You do not love her voice?

Something is seriously wrong wit' you. ;)

I think more than one person here would agree with you on that. :1evil3:

thebigkahooouna

09-09-2010, 01:25 PM

I'm not into country that much,but I think she has a great voice.

The first record I ever bought when I was 10 years old was called
"The Wayward Wind" by Gogi Grant.Its still one of my favorite songs.
When I went looking for it on Youtube to download,I saw
Patsy Cline did it also...and I loved it. This really a more soulful version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFuzHbM9EEc

Dreamy5

09-09-2010, 01:31 PM

I dislike c&w in general, but there were a few I liked. Marty Robbins, for one.

And now, back to politics. We're right, you're wrong (spoken by both sides).

There, that covered the important points, huh?

la gazza ladra

09-09-2010, 03:16 PM

Even I like Patsy Cline. And I am not into country at all.......

And I love Winchester.

STFU Ice.:1skull:

IceBlueEyes

09-09-2010, 07:35 PM

No a big C&W fan either.
:1rotfl2: Kiss my ass Gaz... :1rotfl2:

toys-to-treasures

09-09-2010, 08:04 PM

1. The stimulus was not a failure. It was too small. But if we hadn't had it, we'd be far worse off. There is no debate about this among economists.

2. The economy was nowhere near as bad in the Carter years. If you think so, then you have no idea what the economy is about or what happened.

The stimulus is a failure and there is most certainly a debate about it among economists. At least you cannot demonstrably prove it wasn't which by the nature of what stimulus is make it unsucessful at the minimum. At a minimum it did not accomplish what was advertised and was poorly targeted. Most economists do agree on that.

I was around in 1980 and a young adult. You can argue which was worse but the economy for the average person was worse at the end of the Carter years. We had genuine double digit unemployment, sky high interest rates and more inflation. Perhaps if we had not intervened and the financial system collapsed you could make that case but that was propped up in 2008 by joint agreement of Bush and Obama.

One of the things that I think will make it slower for us to recover from this is we have even less of a manufacturing base that the 1980's

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:21 PM

One of the things that I think will make it slower for us to recover from this is we have even less of a manufacturing base that the 1980's

And one of the main sectors of the economy that this administration only gives lip service...while, pushing full forward wearing down or outright making it damn near impossible for what little manufacturing remains to be able to stay in business in this country.

It's been been a tortuous slow burn....harder and harder to witness while it happens right in front of our eyes. It's in the print media's daily headlines.

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:28 PM

Oh...and for all those screaming about going to war to boost the economy...the main economy it boosted was China's....Even the fricken tents were made in China. Or like the fence on the border with Mexico....yep, steel from CHINA. The administration of this country with the genius' of academia at the helm, is one lesson they've failed miserably.

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:30 PM

...And.....anyone who can't appreciate the gifted voice of Patsy Cline, is tone deaf.

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:31 PM

I think more than one person here would agree with you on that. :1evil3:

Just did!!!

:)

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:34 PM

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4318/84929996.jpg

thebigkahooouna

09-09-2010, 08:37 PM

I love my Starbucks,I have one EVERY morning :)

Citnalta

09-09-2010, 08:58 PM

I love my Starbucks,I have one EVERY morning :)

Actually, I don't drink coffee....but, the IV is an idea. :1tantrum:

Moving right along.....

Plant near Albion to close shop

ALBION, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) – The shutdown of a plant in Albion is delivering another economic hit to West Michigan as more people brace to lose their jobs.

Patriot Antenna Systems has announced that it's closing its plant just outside Albion by the end of 2010. About 100 people are employed there.

It's another blow to a community that's taken its fair share of hits.

Driving by the Patriot Antenna plant, it's easy to see what they make, advanced antennas and satellites. The company has had contracts with NASA and other federal agencies, but officials with the company and community leaders have confirmed to Newschannel 3 that the plant will be shut down.

“Losing employment and jobs for our city, I just think it's a disaster,” said Marilyn Hennon, Sheridan Township Economic Development Director.

Hennon didn't mince words when Newschannel 3 spoke to her, for her the loss of 100 jobs is a disaster, especially when it's a homegrown business like Patriot Antenna Systems.

“Very tough,” said Hennon, “but Albion gets right together and works to try to save people and save jobs and that's what we'll do again.”

While the Patriot plant is outside Albion's city limits, the Economic Development Office knows that the shut down will impact the whole community.

“We're always sad to see a company close up or shrink,” said Peggy Sindt, Albion Economic Development Director, “it hurts everybody in the area.”

Patriot almost moved to Arizona in 2004, but instead stayed in Albion and expanded. Around the same time came a contract with NASA to build deep space antennas. The space agency ordered hundreds, which would have created hundreds of jobs, but with the economy down, Cobham, which owns Patriot, decided to move operations, leaving Albion residents like Jamie Jones stunned.

“My wife has three sons that work there,” said Jones, “they've been working there for quite a while, my brother in law did quite a bit of work on the building, it's a shock to me.”

A handful of workers will move with the operation down to Florida, but the rest will face layoffs.

“I think they're going to find that employees here were better than they can find anywhere else,” said Sindt, “I think they made a mistake.”

One comment to the article sums it up.... 3:12 PM on September 9, 2010

Thanks again, Gov. Granholm for the Michigan Business Tax. Florida (which is where these jobs will likely go) has no state income tax. I would move my company outta here ASAP. The owners aren't stupid.
http://www.wwmt.com/articles/albion-1381312-shop-close.html
:sm1141:
In the long run .... States like Florida may find all those federal tax hikes on those making between $200-$250,000/year, a boom for their state's economy .... Too bad the federal government doesn't seem to really be in it for the long run of this country.

.

Dreamy5

09-10-2010, 05:02 AM

...And.....anyone who can't appreciate the gifted voice of Patsy Cline, is tone deaf.

Most likely.

Citnalta

09-11-2010, 10:05 AM

Dell finally pulls plug

575 jobs will be gone with November closing

Updated: 09/11/2010 01:30 am

There will be no more reprieves for the Dell Inc. plant in Forsyth County.
The company said yesterday that it plans to close the $110 million computer-assembly plant in November, with most of the remaining 575 full-time and contract employees being let go by the end of October.
"Dell will honor retention bonus and severance agreements previously

communicated, regardless of departure dates," spokesman David Frink said.

The plant has been operating on borrowed time for more than 11 months.
After announcing its closing plans on Oct. 7, 2009, Dell postponed the shutdown four times -- to April, June, October and mid-January 2011 -- because of a surge in demand from businesses wanting new desktops and other technologies.

However, Dell officials stressed that the plant would not stay open longer than it had to.

The announcement was met with resignation by local officials.
"Certainly it is disappointing for those individuals who were counting on working through the end of the year," said Allen Joines, the mayor of Winston-Salem.

Gayle Anderson, the president and chief executive of the Winston-Salem Chamber of Commerce, said that the closing "has just been a question of when. We have been lucky to have had those jobs as long as we did."
Dave Plyler, the chairman of the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners, learned of the closing when he got a call from a Dell official.

"They have been a good company," Plyler said. "Dell has done everything they said they would do. They have been working with business conditions, and they have to pay attention to that."

Frink declined to comment on whythe company chose to end operations in November.

However, it is likely that a combination of decreased demand for desktops, as well as production upgrades and improved labor relations by Foxconn, its third-party contractor in Mexico, led to the decision.

Katy Huberty, an analyst with Morgan Stanley & Co. Inc., downgraded Dell's stock yesterday from "equal weight" to "underweight" based in part on slowing growth for the personal-computer unit.

Frink said that no decision has been made about how quickly Dell will exit the plant.

A task force was formed soon after Dell made its initial decision to find a new user or users for the 750,000-square-foot plant. The reprieves put the task force on the backburner.

Joines said that not having a firm closing date has hindered the marketing of the plant.

For example, he said that the region lost one potential company -- one with the code name of Project Bruin -- that chose to go to Ohio because of the uncertainty of the plant's availability.

Bob Leak, the president of Winston-Salem Business Inc., has said that most projects take six to 12 months to reach their final location decision.
"That would give us time to coordinate a transition with Dell," Leak said.
Joines said that the Dell plant is "pretty adaptable" to a variety of uses, including a data center, distribution and similar operations.

Dell opened the plant in October 2005 with great fanfare and promise -- about 10 months after securing eligibility for up to $38 million in local incentives and up to $267 million in state incentives. The plant's lifespan was projected to be at least 15 to 20 years.

But some analysts predicted that the plant wouldn't last that long for two reasons -- the desktop-computer market was nearing a saturation point, and laptop computers were expected to overtake desktops in popularity.

Both came to pass much sooner than expected. Because Dell had no plans to assemble laptops here -- it's less expensive to do so overseas -- and server production never materialized as hoped, there was no Plan B.

The plant's work force reached a peak of 1,400. By the time Dell initially announced its plant-closing plans in October 2009, it was down to 905. About 400 jobs were cut in November 2009.

Within weeks of making its plant-closing decision, Dell agreed to pay back $26.5 million in local incentive money. If Dell had not made the decision, and kept the plant open through at least October 2010, it would have been eligible to keep half of the local incentive amount.

Yea, right, I just bet they will!!!

As Dell's plant closes, Caterpillar Inc. will begin work on its new manufacturing plant nearby. Caterpillar plans to break ground on Nov. 12.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/sep/11/110130/dell-finally-pulls-plug/news/
By Richard Craver | Journal Reporter
Published: September 11, 2010