Beautiful poem

[newslady]

I heard this poem tonight recited during an episode of one my favorite TV series which is coming to an end. What do the words mean to you?

Our death is our wedding with eternity
What is the secret?....God is one

The sunlight splits when entering the windows of the house
This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes

It is not in the juice made from the grapes
For he who is living in the light of God

The death of the carnal soul is a blessing
Regarding him say neither bad nor good

For he is gone beyond the good and the bad
Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible

So that he may place another look in your eyes
It is the eternal light which is the light of God

The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and the flesh
O God, who gives the grace of vision, the bird of vision is flying toward you with the wings of desire

[Kiheicat]

You know I respect you and your individual beliefs, Kim, so I trust that you won't find it offensive for me to say that as an atheist I find immensely different meaning in that poem... and yet viewing the concept of God metaphorically as a force of awakening within there are spiritual similarities.
:)

[newslady]

Cat,

I'm interested in your interpretation. That's why I started this thread. I found it to be extremely moving.

Dusa, Please add you thoughts too.

This poem, by an Afghani whose name I can't recall at the moment, was read during a burial service on an episode of Six Feet Under last night. To me, it's talking about how we must all find our spiritual paths.

I was just interested in what others see when they read the verses.

[Powerhouse]

Sorry, Kim, I only came out of it lost and confused. I got nada out of it. :(

[Kiheicat]

Ok, you asked. ;)
First, when I utter the word 'God', it is not in reference to the religious deity that most folks think of when they think of 'God'. To me, 'God' is a concept. IMO God the deity concept was initially borne of the need to explain the unexplainable even if not completely, answers quell the fear/uneasiness/apprehension that we naturally experience. God provides an answer. God therefore gives peace because man no longer has to think and ultimately agonize over soul-searching queries of our own inner selves and mind-numbing speculation of the unanswerable beyond our scope of knowledge ie the universe, life after death, and indeed the existence/non-existence of a supreme being.

To me, God means the energy within us and the forces beyond us, an endless intangible summation all of which comprise the ultimate, as a noun rather than an adjective.

Having said that...

Our death is our wedding with eternity
What is the secret?....God is one
As I stated above, God the concept is the summation of the unanswerable - the secret - and our death realizes eternity either by answering the life-haunting questions we all experience or by finally putting them to rest with quiet for eternity.

The sunlight splits when entering the windows of the house
This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes
The answers, as the questions, are multi-dimensional.

It is not in the juice made from the grapes
For he who is living in the light of God

The death of the carnal soul is a blessing
Regarding him say neither bad nor good

For he is gone beyond the good and the bad
Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible
Instinctual vs. learned ripple effects are the core of our real soul and heart. Good and bad are subjective but awakening within and instinctually reacting accordingly grow energy - spiritual energy.

So that he may place another look in your eyes
It is the eternal light which is the light of God

The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and the flesh
O God, who gives the grace of vision, the bird of vision is flying toward you with the wings of desire
This is a really cool passage to me and beautifully written. The bird of vision is us when we pass from this life and either wing our way to a realm of clarity or quietly diminish as our breath stops, our warmth cools, and our light extinguishes - which is, of course, the ultimate (adjective and noun) unanswerable in life.

That oughtto take you a while to chew on, lol.
Interesting piece and excellent open-mindedness to query other viewpoints. :)

[kim]

okay news...

a couple of disclaimers - first - i'm not going to explain exactly what i mean - second - my use of lower case is significant to my beliefs - concerning - actually non-significance - i don't wish to elevate anything above anything else - however - this is not meant in any way what-so-ever to indicate non-importance - i think that everything is important - er well anyway - just as important as anything - third - my focus here in this thread - is on christianity - mainly - but - that does not mean that i consider christianity - well like i said - more important than anything else - however - i do consider it important - hahaha - okay - enough about that - one more - four - i'm using KJV here...

i'll say a little - because you asked - but - remember in chat a few weeks ago - somebody said something about good works - or - about charity - something like that - and - remember - ? - i said - "we aren't supposed to talk about it." - what i meant was - we aren't supposed to call attention to our good works - to say we did such and such - we aren't supposed to - according to the bible - mention these things - in order to gain recognition - and / or - we aren't supposed to do good works - just because we think we might be rewarded - we are only supposed to do good works - out of love - because we love - we do good...

well anyway - i was thinking more about it - this past week - and - about other things too - about what people believe - and - what the bible says - about the ten commandments - and - how christians say those are important rules to follow - and - how others - sometimes not christian - say - yeah - those are good rules - so anyway - there seems to be a general consensus - especially concering - certain commandments - whether we individually consider them the word of god - or - whether we just think they are very sensible and good rules - like for instance - thou shall not kill - most of us agree - that's a good rule - thou shall not commit adultry - most of us consider cheating - well - just a not very nice way to go about living our lives - as well as - stealing - coveting what our neighbors have - thou shall not bear false witness against others - most of us agree on those ones too...

however - there are other commandements / rules / - which i think are not necessarily agreed upon - in any real strong sense - neither by all nor most people - and also which - i think are very much misunderstood / misinterpreted...

these are the comandments having to do with - who / what god - supposedly is - and - with how people are supposed to act concerning what that really means...

thou shall have no other gods before me - (this is why - i try not to consider anything as being more significant or more important than anything else - of course - i don't always succeed - but - i think this is the way i ought to be - and - i also think - this is what this commandment is saying) - other people think all sorts of different things about this - some think it means that the christian god - the same one apparently as the god of the old testament - the god of the hebrews - as well - the god of mohammad - and - the god - of islam - is the only god - i disagree with these ideas - actually - i think there is one god - as well as - many gods - kazillions - (everything - even - so called "inanimate objects") - which is really all one - (so concerning death - and the poem - i don't think anything really dies - i don't think inanimate objects are really inanimate) - i think things are always in constant motion - always changing - i believe - i suppose - in change - although - it could be that there is no time - hence - really no change - it could all be just an illusion - which we thought up - in order to catagorise things - and really maybe - everything that ever was - is here now - always forever the same - and - oh - i don't know what the heck - maybe we are dreaming...

back to the ten commandments - those odd ones - the ones we don't seem to all agree with...

thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...

this one really concerns me - i think that vast numbers of people don't pay attention to this rule at all - see - i think that any attempt to define "god" - is an attempt to create - in the mind - if nothing else - an image - and - all sorts of people - do this - all the time - i don't think we ought to - i think when we attempt to create and image of god - we end up setting up catagories - and - we set up something as being more significant than something else - or - more significant than everything else - i think that violates the prior commandment concerning worship of one god above another - i know this may seem contradictory - and / or - um - odd perhaps - but - this is what i think this means...

news - although - i told you in that pm - that i like this poem - (and - yes - i really do) - still - i think that this poem - (in some ways contradictory as well) - at certain points - attempts to define god - (at other points - though - it seems to do - just the opposite - for example: "Regarding him say neither bad nor good") - this worrys me - this defining of god - i don't know exactly how to explain - why - it worrys me - and also - i have no answer at all - concerning how we might go about living - without any definitions at all - (of anything) - still - defintions of any kind - worry me - (i suppose that - this worries me mostly - because - so many disagree concering certain definitions - even to the point that some will kill another - because they disagree on defintions - of certain things - yes - this worries me)...

thou shalt not take the name of the lord thy god in vain; for the lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain...

hmmm - i think that many people interpret this to mean - don't cuss using the word god in the same sentence - i don't think so - i think it means - don't presume to define - in the name of god - what god might say - unless - you are prepared to proclaim yourself god - which i don't think - really - that many people are ready to do...

well - i feel as if i'm going off in all sorts of directions here - and - really - i just think it's a nice poem - and - i agree with you - news - that at least part of it - is saying - what you said: that it's talking about how we must all find our spiritual paths...

however - i don't know that each and every one of us - *must* - do that - nor - am i - at all certain that - what we know of as death - brings any answers / or / a sense of oneness / or / final peace...

[newslady]

Cat and Dusa,

You both offer interesting perceptions. The poem is by the 13th century Sufi poet Rumi.

I keep rereading it and really believe he is issuing a call for us to open our hearts to other human beings, in order to open our hearts to God.

[kim]

i know of him - i've read some of his other other poems - i like them...

[Kiheicat]

Cat and Dusa,

You both offer interesting perceptions. The poem is by the 13th century Sufi poet Rumi.

I keep rereading it and really believe he is issuing a call for us to open our hearts to other human beings, in order to open our hearts to God.
See I have a problem with that ... I think we should open our hearts to other human beings just because its right, and we should do it naturally rather than with intent. If one opens his/her heart in order to (insert absolutely anything here) then the heart is not open freely.
I personally have found so much more peace after years of "Christianity" followed by years of unsettle-driven searching and coming to the conclusion that there is no God ... not as the human conceptualized God anyway ... and interestingly I've discovered that it makes purer the motive when you're doing right instinctually rather than because you have to according to some rule or commandment.

I'll refrain from my opinions (for the moment) regarding the bible doubletalk. Sufficient to say, though, that if you have to have a 'commandment' tell you that killing someone isn't such a hot idea well, you have bigger issues to fry. ;)

[newslady]

Cat,

I'm not referring to Scripture at all.

You say opening our hearts to other human beings should be done because it's "right." I don't disagree. But I take it a step further, because my faith tells me God created us all inherently good and imbued with doing what's "right."

Whether we are agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, animist, or worshipping the tooth fairy, our spiritual walk must include a willingness to love each other as ourselves. Am I making sense? It's late here.

[Kiheicat]

Whether we are agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, animist, or worshipping the tooth fairy, our spiritual walk must include a willingness to love each other as ourselves.
Absolutely :)

[Kiheicat]

Clarifying, Kim (those darned quote buttons quote the entire post when I meant to quote 1/2 a sentence):
I keep rereading it and really believe he is issuing a call for us to open our hearts to other human beings, in order to open our hearts to God.
See I have a problem with that ... I think we should open our hearts to other human beings just because its right, and we should do it naturally rather than with intent. If one opens his/her heart in order to (insert absolutely anything here) then the heart is not open freely.
That was my only comment on your post. The rest, regarding biblical/commandment references were in response to Dusa's post. Incidentally, Dusa, re your writing style with regards to one thing not being more important than another: Interesting. I've read you for years and always wondered why you write as you do so thanks for the enlightenment. :)

[kim]

you're welcome keheicat - those were just some my thoughts about the ten commandments - and - how i'd been thinking about them them - the past week - and - also how they seemed to relate to the poem - (in my mind anyway) - and also - just some general thoughts - about how - i think people think - about religion - my beliefs are strange - yes - really strange - i mean - even i think so - so they must be - hahaha - anyway - religious-wise - i'm basically - a pantheist - with a heavy dose of atheistic leanings - and also - with a huge interest in all religion/s - although - not a whole lot much moreso - than my interest in - everything - "else" - i like history - and - i'm interested in what motivates people - and - what i said - about people doing things out of love - yes - that's what i meant - not because of any commandment - and yes also - naturally is definitely good - but - i also see nothing wrong with - good intentions / intent - either...

anyway - now that i know that the poem was written by rumi - who was a sufi - i interpret it - somewhat differently than before - since sufism - well - that's a whole 'nother story / subject...