Erosion of the rights of Everyman

[agentorange]

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/92/135/04_2_m.html
The face of civil liberties for average, moderately law-abiding folks has changed so that we can hardly recognize them.

Fifteen years ago, my contemporaries and myself would have never dreamt we would urinate into Dixie cups to get a job. We could always count on the "wingspan rule" for search and seizure making the area around our extended arms off limits for search. Now you can be detained 17 hours or more in a traffic stop and once-inadmissible evidence is acceptable.

The last 20 years has seen a continuing attack on personal liberties. The conservative Supreme Court, Congress and their allies du jour are attempting to denigrate personal freedoms and eradicate the Constitution. (Parts, of course, would be kept, like keeping guns and such). The attack is incremental, but its denouement is an erosion of civil liberties and personal autonomy.

When was the last time the Supreme Court enunciated a new right rather than barred us from enjoying another?

The attacks have been met with complacency, an ugly mindset. Stirrings of conscious thought concerning injustice may be present, but soon are forgotten. Outrage fades quickly. Indeed, most appear oblivious to the amazing decrease in individual rights over the last 20 years. Reaction may depend on actual proximity to an issue - that is, each may find himself asking silently, "Will I ever be a passenger in a car and not want to be searched?"

If the immediate answer is no, a certain reconciliation ensues. Legislation against civil rights apply to criminals. We are not criminals. The Supreme Court, and in particular Justice Antonin Scalia, feels that there should be no liberty in the presence of criminal activity.

What we forget, however, is that those being trampled are not hardened criminals involved in a life of crime. They are smokers of joints, not interstate hijackers. They are issuers of fake parking permits and people who fail to keep their dogs on leashes. They are not mass murderers.

Crime does not spring up naturally like bad pollen. Statutes make crime, not nature. If more behaviors are criminal, then crime rates increase. And criminal statutes now are intruding into what should be considered private behavior.

What started this slippery slope of eroding civil rights is the so-called "War on Drugs," signed into law by George Bush. Police budgets and workforce have increased tenfold since the "War on Drugs" was declared. The rationale: We need to be saved from the ravages of drugs. Forget that the war on drugs began after a significant period of actual decline in drug use. Forget that after 20 years we have not significantly altered the drug use rates in this country. Forget that someone is arrested every 20 seconds on a drug charge. Forget that we have had to build hundreds of new jails and prisons to hold all the criminals we created by legislation.

We now live in a country where police can bust into a home and do serious property damage based on wrong address information and suffer no repercussions. There is still a thing known as habeas corpus, but many people will not be reminded of that fact once they are no longer read their rights via Miranda warnings upon arrest.

The media painted us a horrific image of crack-crazed crime, and legislators took full advantage while the fear frenzy was in bloom. As long as it is not us getting our belongings searched or our car confiscated, why should we care?

Once-legal activities are now classified as criminal. With every restrictive piece of legislation comes the implied right of police to delve more deeply into our lives.

Meanwhile, legislation is creating more crime to save us from. But, we have civil rights and liberty! Yes, we have rights. Those very rights we are giving away. We are losing our most important privileges as citizens. Our rights are our check on abuses. Government is not supposed to operate unfettered. It is supposed to be stopped when it becomes too far removed from the people.

Our prisons have been filled. Our civil rights have been stripped away, layer by layer, like some rotted onion. We have irrational, draconian laws, applied with no sense of justice or fairness. We have federal mandatory drug sentencing laws that stick people caught in possession of drugs with a minimum five-year sentence with no chance of parole on their second conviction. We have the most massive penal system in the world, with the highest criminal rate of incarceration. We have tens of thousands of police merely to combat drugs. We have used the military in drug operations against our own citizenry.

Isn't this how the Nazi regime got started? Hitler did come to power legally. He also legislated all of his methods and abuses. People stopped paying attention. They became complacent.

[TerrorEd]

"We now live in a country where police can bust into a home and do serious property damage based on wrong address information and suffer no repercussions."

This Is Very True. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0330044pot1.html)

Police, be they federal, state, or local, have a big monetary incentive to raid places. It's called property and asset seizure.

"Isn't this how the Nazi regime got started?"

I do believe you're correct. There are but a few ways to stop this madness:

1. The Electoral Process (Hasn't worked lately, doubtful that it will again)

2. Peaceful Demonstration (Tough to organize since Kent State)

3. Mass Armed Revolution (Too many innocent folks would be put into harm's way, I couldn't condone that)

4. Organize, And Subvert From Within The Rank-And-File (A tough nut to crack, and it would take a long time)

I'm game for #4, do you have any other ideas Base? :)

They can have my bong when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :1bong:

Ed.

[kim]

just as that little turd - in the w.h. - likes to say about the u.n. - that it is - "irrellevant" - by saying it - coming from the position he holds - that the u.s. holds - automatically lends a certain truth to it - i don't buy it - however - even just the utterance of those words - has a certain amount of effectiveness...

a statement like that could be taken all the way by anyone and be very effective...

WE CAN MAKE THE LITTLE TURD AND ALL OF HIS MINIONS - IRRELEVANT...

look to the argentinian people - who - disgusted with their government - decided to make their own money - create their own - people's market - it worked - they successfully made their government - irrrelevant...

there are many ways to go about doing this - use fair trade - (as opposed to the so called "free trade" - which really means - free to cheat others)...

all sorts of ways - take over your own companies - no more bosses...

etc...

[kim]

i want you to recognise this very simple very basic universal truth...

there is no true recognition of any authority over anyone or anything in the universe everything is equal...

[agentorange]

Dusa, do you think the police are authority figures? Should people see them as such? Why or why not?

[10x]

more population = less liberties

[kim]

base - i think they are authority figures only in the sense that we choose to give them that power - (it's just a job) - should we have police - (?) - i'm undecided...

[kim]

p.s. i guess i didn't quite answer that second question excatly - should we see them as authority figures...?

um - that's up to each individual - i suppose - weigh the possibilities - as it stands now - is it to your personal advantage to do so...? perhaps...

[kim]

edit - exactly - dang it...

[Kiheicat]

There was a blurb on the Daily Buzz this morning about mandatory blood tests for suspected drunk drivers. I can't for the life of me recall which state but Tony thinks it was Florida. Now I am ALL FOR getting drunk drivers off of the road and punishing them stiffly but mandatory blood tests for suspected drunk drivers? Bad. :(

Oh, btw in case anyone is interested: http://www.impeachbush.tv/
There's not an impeach Bush thread (yet) so here's as good a place as any to plop that link, lol

[Kiheicat]

As far as I'm concerned, all of this airport security--the cameras, the questions, the screenings, the searches--is just one more way of reducing your liberty and reminding you that they can fuck with you anytime they want. Because that's the way Americans are now. They're willing to trade away a little of their freedom in exchange for the feeling---the illusion---of security.
-George Carlin

[agentorange]

p.s. i guess i didn't quite answer that second question excatly - should we see them as authority figures...?
NO, Dusa, we should see them as paid public servants, which is what they are. NOT authority figures.

In answer to your question "should we have police", the answer is, the police are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Believe it or not, our founding fathers believed that citizens, not police, should enforce the law. Does that apply to today? Does it apply to modern society?

[kim]

okay - base - servants - yep - i've said exactly that before - same as that guy in the white house - he doesn't know his place - ought to be fired...

well - the constituion - we aren't - (really - in reality i mean - no matter what it says) - we are not - guaranteed - any of those things - we never were - that was a big lie - for school kids - funny - isn't it - how they lie - and - brainwash kids in school - hahaha - yeah - real funny - it always was - the reality of it - has always been - we have to struggle / fight / demand - those things...

- if we want them...

[Heartland]

That's because there will always be assholes who try to take away our rights. The people having any power is an extremely scarey thought to those in charge. They are terrified right now because the class issue has been brought to the forefront. Their hope has always been to keep the poor down in the ghettos, doing hard drugs, having babies (why do you really think they want to outlaw abortion?) fighting with and killing each other, so they wouldn't turn their attention to those in power.

If the class tilt gets so bad that the worker class is affected (which it already is), and if the poor and middle class rise up, the rich and powerful know damned good and well that there's nothing they can do about it. Their only hope is to keep people so oppressed and so struggling that they can only think of day-to-day survival.

[Cartman]

1. The Electoral Process (Hasn't worked lately, doubtful that it will again)... which is another way of whining that YOUR GUY LOST!


... the police are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Believe it or not, our founding fathers believed that citizens, not police, should enforce the law.I do believe that you are quite full of shit!


(as usual)

..

[kim]

nobody's guy won you stupid fuck...

[Kashtin]

2. Peaceful Demonstration (Tough to organize since Kent State)



Ed.



Anyone who can refer to Kent State as a "Peaceful Demonstration" wasn't there. Didn't have family property destroyed. Didn't see family members lives ruined for decades because of the "Peaceful" demonstrators.

Yeah, I was there. I lived five miles from Kent State University. Right now I'm sitting ten miles from the campus.

[bluekazoo]

Much like Grant Park in '68, Kashtin, Kent State was peaceful until the powers-that-be came in to stop it.

I remember it all very well, too. It was 35 years ago this past May 4th.

[Kashtin]

Much like Grant Park in '68, Kashtin, Kent State was peaceful until the powers-that-be came in to stop it.

I remember it all very well, too. It was 35 years ago this past May 4th.



The "Peaceful" fucks destroyed my families business on May 2, 1970.

The PTB had nothing to do with it.

[bluekazoo]

Well there goes THAT discussion, eh, Kashtin?

I'm sorry about your family's business - also sorry that your anger will prevent you from discussing this issue calmly.

I won't talk about what I lost that day ... you're holding the trump card on May 4, 1970, kashtin (or May 2, in your case, which of course was 2 days BEFORE the killing of 4 young people by the National Guard) ... plus you've got your anger to back it up.

I won't fight about it, and I won't play the 'my loss is bigger than your loss' game. Take care.

(wish I had seen this discussion earlier, base - it's a good one - you have many valid points)

[bluekazoo]

On second thought ... could you provide more detail, kashtin?

What did they do to your family's business? I'd be very interested in hearing your story ..

I have to be gone for a few hours, have to go do family stuff, and then I've got some volunteer stuff to do this afternoon ... but I will be back later ...

[Kashtin]

You remember the protest signs? The slogans painted on the university buildings, the slogans painted on the wall of the ROTC building before it burned? All compliments of Sheaperd Paint And Wallpaper, Kent Ohio. May 2ND. was his last day of business.

And they weren't happy with just breaking a few windows and taking a few cans of paint. Nope, EVERYTHING was either stolen or destroyed. Read your insurance policy. It's the same now as it was back then. You are not covered for acts of war, or RIOT. Uncle Bud was a proud man. He owed his creditors and would never file bankruptcy. Why should someone else be screwed, was his way of thinking. Took him twenty years, but he paid every one.

The next two posts are a timeline of the "peaceful demonstation".

[Kashtin]

KENT STATE: May 1-4, 1970
(text written by May 4th Task Force Members)

On April 30th, President Nixon announced on national
television that a massive American-South Vietnamese troop
offensive into Cambodia was in progress. "We take these
actions," Nixon said, "not for the purpose of expanding the
war into Cambodia, but for the purpose of ending the war in
Vietnam, and winning the just peace we all desire."
These were familiar words to a war-weary public. Some
felt that this decision was essential for attaining a "just
peace" and sustaining America's credibility in the world.
Yet others, particularly students, believed that this action
represented an escalation of the war and a return to ex-President
Johnson's earlier hopes for a military victory. As the fires
from the artillery began to burn in Cambodia, a raging fire of
protest spread across the United States.
At Kent State University, the reaction to Nixon's announcement
was similar to that of other campuses across the nation.

FRIDAY MAY 1, 1970

At noon about 500 students gathered around the Victory Bell
on the Commons, the traditional site for rallies. A group of
history students, who had organized the protest, buried a copy
of the Constitution, which they claimed had been murdered when
US troops were sent into Cambodia without a declaration of war
by Congress.
Three hours later, Black United Students held a rally, which
had been scheduled before Nixon had made his announcement. Some
400 people gathered to hear black students talk about recent
disorders with the Ohio National Guard on their campus. Word
spread quickly that another rally, one to oppose the invasion
of Cambodia, was scheduled for Monday, May 4, at noon.
Friday night, one of the first warm evenings of the spring,
several hundred students gathered in downtown Kent in an area
with a number of bars, known as "the Strip," on North Water
Street. A spontaneous anti-war rally began in the street.
Twice, while the rally was in progress, passing police cruisers
were hit with beer bottles. Afterwards, police stayed away from
the area. Meanwhile, more people were leaving the bars.
Many in the crowd chanted anti-war slogans, and a bonfire
was set in the street. The crowd blocked traffic for about an
hour and then moved toward the center of town. Some members
of the crowd began to break windows. Primarily "political targets"
were attacked, including banks, loan companies, and utility
companies.
After being informed of the events, Kent Mayor Leroy Satrom
declared a "state of emergency," and arbitrarily ordered all of
the bars closed. Kent police, along with the mayor, then confronted
the crowd. The riot act was read and police proceeded to clear the
area. People inside the bars were ordered to leave, forcing
hundreds more into the streets. The crowd was herded toward the
campus with tear gas and knight sticks, which was in the opposite
direction in which some of them lived.
Fourteen persons, mostly stragglers, were arrested. About
$5000 in damage was done as 43 windows were broken--28 in one bank.

SATURDAY, MAY 2, 1970

On the morning of May 2, some KSU students assisted with the
downtown cleanup. Rumors of radical activities were widespread,
and KSU's ROTC building was believed to be the target of militant
students that evening. During the Vietnam War, students on many
college campuses opposed the presence of ROTC and often were
successful in forcing the removal of ROTC from their campuses.
A dusk-to-dawn curfew was imposed on the city of Kent, and students
were restricted to the campus. At 5 p.m., shortly after assessing
the situation, Mayor Satrom alerted the Ohio National Guard. KSU
officials were unaware of this decision.
Shortly after 8 p.m., about 300 people gathered on the Commons,
where a few anti-war slogans were chanted and a few brief speeches
given. An impromptu march began and participants headed towards the
dormitories to gain strength. Large numbers of people joined the
march. The now 2,000 marches swarmed the hill overlooking the
Commons, crossed the Commons. Then they surrounded the ROTC
building, an old wooden World War II barracks which was scheduled
to be demolished. Windows were broken and a few persons eventually
set the building on fire.
Plain-clothed police who were standing nearby made no attempt
to stop the students at this point. Firemen arrived on the scene
but their actions were abandoned because some of the crowd attacked
the firemen and slashed their hoses. The blaze quickly died out.
The firemen eventually regained control and the fire died out.
The building was ignited again. This time, however, firemen
arrived with massive police protection. Police surrounded the
building and dispersed the students with tear gas. The firemen
again got the fire under control. The crowd then moved to the
front of the campus. The students retreated to the Commons to
find the ROTC building smoldering at both ends. Within minutes,
the building was fully ablaze.
The crowd then assembled on the wooded hillside beside the
commons and watched as the building burned. Many shouted anti-
war slogans. In the first two weeks of May, thirty ROTC buildings
would be burned nationwide.
Armed with tear gas and drawn bayonets, the guard pursued
students, protesters and bystanders alike, into dormitories and
other campus buildings. Some stones were thrown and at least one
student was bayoneted. The question of who set the fire that
destroyed ROTC building has never been satisfactorily answered by
any investigative body

[Kashtin]

SUNDAY, MAY 3, 1970

May 3 was a relatively quiet day. By now, however, the campus
was fully occupied by Ohio National Guard troops, and armored
personnel carriers were stationed throughout the campus.
Although some students and guardsmen fraternized, the feeling, for
the most part, was one of mutual hostility. That morning, Ohio
Governor James Rhodes, who was running for US Senate, arrived in
Kent and along with city officials, held a news conference. Rhodes,
running on a "law and order" platform, attempted to use this
opportunity to garner votes in the primary election, which was
only two days away.
In a highly inflammatory speech, Rhodes claimed that the
demonstrations at Kent were the handiwork of a highly organized
band of revolutionaries who were out to "destroy higher
education in Ohio." These protesters, Rhodes declared, were "the
worst type of people we harbor in America, worse than the brown
shirts and the communist element...we will use whatever force
necessary to drive them out of Kent!"
Later that evening, a National Guard commander would tell
his troops that Ohio law gave them the right to shoot if
necessary. This merely sent to heighten guardsmen's hostility
toward students.
Around 8 p.m., a crowd gathered on the Commons near the
Victory Bell. As the group increased in size, Guard officials
announced the immediate enforcement of a new curfew. The crowd
refused to disperse. At 9 p.m. the Ohio Riot act was read. Tear
gas was fired from helicopters hovering overhead, and the Guard
dispersed the crowd from the area.
Students attempted to demonstrate that the curfew was
unnecessary by peacefully marching towards the town, but were
met by guardsmen. Students then staged a spontaneous sit-in
at the intersection of East Main and Lincoln Streets and demanded
that Mayor Satrom and KSU president Robert White speak with them
about the Guard's presence on campus. Assured that this demand
would be met, the crowd agreed to move from the street onto the
front lawn of campus.
The guard then betrayed the students and announced that the
curfew would go into effect immediately. Helicopters and tear
gas were used to disperse the demonstrators. As the crowd
attempted to escape, some were bayoneted and clubbed by guardsmen.
Students were again pursued and prodded back to their
dormitories. Tear gas innundated the campus, and helicopters
with searchlights hovered overhead all night.

MONDAY, MAY 4, 1970

At 11 a.m., about 200 students gathered on the Commons.
Earlier that morning, state and local officials had met in Kent.
Some officials had assumed that Gov. Rhodes had declared Martial
Law to be in effect--but he had not. In fact, martial law was
not officially declared until May 5. Nevertheless, the National
Guard resolved to disperse any assembly.
As noon approached, the size of the crowd increased to 1,500.
Some were merely spectators, while others had gathered specifically
to protest the invasion of Cambodia and the continued presence
of the National Guard on the campus. Upon orders of Ohio's
Assistant Adjutant General Robert Canterbury, an army jeep was
driven in front of the assembled students. The students were told
by means of a bullhorn to disperse immediately. Students
responded with jeers and chants. When the students refused to
disperse, Gen. Canterbury ordered the guardsmen to disperse them.
Approximately 116 men, equipped with loaded M-1 rifles and tear
gas, formed a skirmish line towards the students. Aware of bayonet
injuries of the previous evening, students immediately ran away from
the attacking National Guardsmen. Retreating up Blanket Hill, some
students lobbed tear gas canisters back at the advancing troops, and
one straggler was attacked with clubs.
The Guard, after clearing the Commons, marched over the crest
of the hill, firing tear gas and scattering the students into a
wider area. The Guard then continued marching down the hill and
onto a practice football field. For approximately 10 minutes, the
guard stayed in this position. During this time, tear gas canisters
were thrown back and forth from the Guard's position to a small
group of students n the Prentice Hall parking lot, about 100 yards
away. Some students responded to the guardsmen's attack by
throwing stones. Guardsmen also threw stones at the students.
But because of the distance, most stones from both parties fell far
short of their targets. The vast majority of students, however,
were spectators on the veranda of Taylor Hall. While on the practice
field, several members of Troop G, which would within minutes fire the
fatal volley, knelt and aimed their weapons at the students in the
parking lot.
Gen. Canterbury concluded that the crowd had been dispersed and
ordered the Guard to march back to the commons area. Some members of
Troop G then huddled briefly. After reassembling on the field, the
Guardsmen seemed to begin to retreat as they marched back up the hill,
retracing their previous steps.
Members of Troop G, while advancing up the hill, continued
to glance back to the parking lot, where the most militant and vocal
students were located. The students assumed the confrontation
was over. Many students began to walk to their next classes.
As the guard reached the crest of the Blanket Hill, near the
Pagoda of Taylor Hall, about a dozen members of Troop G
simultaneously turned around 180 degrees, aimed and fired their
weapons into the crowd in the Prentice Hall parking lot. The
1975 civil trials proved that there was a verbal command to fire.
A total of 67 shots were fired in 13 seconds. Four students:
Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder
were killed. Nine students were wounded: Joseph Lewis, John Cleary,
Thomas Grace, Robbie Stamps, Donald Scott MacKenzie, Alan Canfora,
Douglas Wrentmore, James Russell and Dean Kahler. Of the wounded,
one was permanently paralyzed, and several were seriously maimed.
All were full-time students.

[Kashtin]

May 1, 1970.

Peaceful protest my ass.


Friday night, one of the first warm evenings of the spring,
several hundred students gathered in downtown Kent in an area
with a number of bars, known as "the Strip," on North Water
Street. A spontaneous anti-war rally began in the street.
Twice, while the rally was in progress, passing police cruisers
were hit with beer bottles. Afterwards, police stayed away from
the area. Meanwhile, more people were leaving the bars.
Many in the crowd chanted anti-war slogans, and a bonfire
was set in the street. The crowd blocked traffic for about an
hour and then moved toward the center of town. Some members
of the crowd began to break windows. Primarily "political targets"
were attacked, including banks, loan companies, and utility
companies.


Then violence and destruction escalated all the way 'til May 4th. It was in the early hours of Saturday morning, during the time that "Primarily "political targets" were attacked", that my Uncle lost his livelihood. Yep, quite the political target, that was. I was there that morning helping to move the few items that were not destroyed into his garage at his home.

[kim]

that kind of violence is so minimal compared to the lives of all the people dying in that idioyic war and this one now days also...

dish out violence every fucking day in our faces in our minds and reap what you sow...

[kim]

darn fingers...

- getting a little trigger happy i suppose...

[bluekazoo]

I heart ramona la duce.

[kim]

love ya too kazoo...

so no need to worry...

i won't shoot you...

:2headspin

[Kashtin]

that kind of violence is so minimal compared to the lives of all the people dying in that idioyic war and this one now days also...

dish out violence every fucking day in our faces in our minds and reap what you sow...



Nice deflection, but do you have evidence that my Uncle "reaped what he sowed"?

[bluekazoo]

Kashtin. You haven't told us WHAT your uncle suffered ... (unless I missed it) ... exactly what type of business was he in, and what happened? Are there specifics you can share? Was it looting? Did someone set the place on fire? Exactly what happened?

A general 'ran him out of business' just doesn't mean anything ... lots of people can use an incident as a reason for something ...

Please. Tell us what happened (unless you'd rather just be pissed about it - but if that's the case, you can hardly expect anything more than a general sympathetic reaction -- tho my sympathetic reaction was lessened significantly by your use of the term "Peaceful Fucks").

[bluekazoo]

and dusa, I won't shoot you either, so I think we're o-kay.

:1jammie:

[Kashtin]

Look up, or down in this post. Either way you'll find it.


Kashtin. You haven't told us WHAT your uncle suffered ... (unless I missed it) ... exactly what type of business was he in, and what happened? Are there specifics you can share? Was it looting? Did someone set the place on fire? Exactly what happened?

A general 'ran him out of business' just doesn't mean anything ... lots of people can use an incident as a reason for something ...

Please. Tell us what happened (unless you'd rather just be pissed about it - but if that's the case, you can hardly expect anything more than a general sympathetic reaction -- tho my sympathetic reaction was lessened significantly by your use of the term "Peaceful Fucks").












You remember the protest signs? The slogans painted on the university buildings, the slogans painted on the wall of the ROTC building before it burned? All compliments of Sheaperd Paint And Wallpaper, Kent Ohio. May 2ND. was his last day of business.

And they weren't happy with just breaking a few windows and taking a few cans of paint. Nope, EVERYTHING was either stolen or destroyed. Read your insurance policy. It's the same now as it was back then. You are not covered for acts of war, or RIOT. Uncle Bud was a proud man. He owed his creditors and would never file bankruptcy. Why should someone else be screwed, was his way of thinking. Took him twenty years, but he paid every one.

The next two posts are a timeline of the "peaceful demonstation".

[Kashtin]

Judging by the tone of your posts, I'm starting to think maybe you were there.

Do you have a connection to any of the above events?

[kim]

i was speaking in a broader sense - kashtin - these things happen when violence upon violence piles up - it's crossfire...

as well - what did the people / civillians - in viet nam do that they should be killed - eh...?

same with iraq...

[kim]

crap - one - "l"...

[kim]

p.s. i was not deflecting - so - (please) - don't just dismiss me - as insignificant...

[Kashtin]

i was speaking in a broader sense - kashtin - these things happen when violence upon violence piles up - it's crossfire...

as well - what did the people / civillians - in viet nam do that they should be killed - eh...?

same with iraq...


And my posts pertained to the claim that Kent State was a peaceful protest. I was there. It was anything BUT peaceful for four days. For two days the police tried to get a handle on things and were outnumbered. For two more days after that the police and national guard tried to stop the violence, burning, and destruction. Now, through left wing revisionist history, all the fault lies on the backs of law enforcement.

[kim]

um - we all have our perspective - i had family there too...

[bluekazoo]

No, I was not there.

And yes, I have a very personal connection to the events of May 4, 1970.

I do not approve of looting, but I understand those days very well.

I'm STILL losing friends to the VietNam war, Kashtin. Still. Lost another one this year, in fact. Only the guys who are STILL dying from that war aren't included in the body count.

I remain proud of peaceful people. And even peaceful people behave badly sometimes. Nobody is perfect. However, if you want to just about ENSURE that something that begins peacefully will end in disaster (riots - even death), just add a military/police presence to the mix.

But painting them all with the broad brush of 'Peaceful Fucks' is wrong. Unless everybody who was there entered your uncle's store and looted it, then it's really a handful of people that you're angry at.

I have friends that lean to the right - one very dear friend, perhaps my best friend online, in fact. However, when we discuss political things, we seek a common ground as a beginning AND an ending point of those discussions. We've found that this often makes for good discussion and never leaves either of us angry or upset. And we often learn a little bit from each other by keeping it civil and polite. Anger doesn't often convert people to a point of view.

I am sorry for your uncle ... I am also sorry for the four dead young people. And I am especially sorry that it took such drastic measures for people to oppose an illegal and immoral war. But, that's America .. or it WAS, anyway ... I barely recognize this country anymore.

Off to do my bit now ... I'm helping to load a semi this afternoon, sorting and bagging/boxing supplies to send south. You see, some of us "peaceful fucks" are still trying to do good things.

And all we can do is continue to try ...


(Ross, we really need a 'peace' emote here - I'm going to go try to find a couple when I get home later)

[Kiheicat]

I am ashamed to be called an American. Ashamed that I, by default, get lumped in with those losers that voted for someone with the IQ (or obvious lack thereof) and apathy of Bush. Astonished that this country is indeed leaders and followers (weak! do you hear the bleating of sheep?) rather than managers and citizens.
It makes me sick.

I'm looking forward to the eventual day that the Nation of Hawaii is strong enough again to take back the aina that was stolen from them and secede. On that day I will renounce my American citizenship. Awesome. :)

[Kiheicat]

...and in the meantime I can amuse myself with this fine merchandise:
http://www.cafepress.com/beatbushgear/448451
LOL
;)

[Heartland]

I haven't given up on this country yet. The funny thing about American politics is that they eventually swing in the other direction. Unfortunately, with nearly all politicians living out of the pockets of corporations, it's going to be a tough nut to crack (pun intended).

[Kiheicat]

You have more faith than I Heartland... here's hoping! :drinky:
;)

Ok I'm outta here for the weekend so I'll cya late tomorrow night or more likely Monday. :)

[agentorange]

Kashtin, I just want to clear a couple things up. First, when I mention "peaceful protestors" I am in fact referring to peaceful protestors. Every mass gathering of people, be it a football game, a catastrophe, or a protest, will have unruly people. Some are unruly. Most are peaceful. Or most are unruly, and some are peaceful. The constitution doesn't protect unruly, violent protestors, but it does protect peaceful demonstrators and so it's up to our judicial system to weed out the bad apples while protecting the good apples. What appears to be happening now is legislation that prevents both the good and the bad from exercising their rights based on the notion that "there's always some bad apples who will commit crimes", which is wrong.

Living in a free society comes with risks. We can't limit our freedoms just to limit those risks, because if we do so, we'll cease to be the United States of America, and everything this country was founded on will rendered bogus and obsolete. As far as the political tower "eventually leaning the other way", as in favor of the democrats, I certainly hope not. Neither way it's been leaning lately is, be it to the right or the left, in our national interest (most specifically, in the interests of this nation's citizens). Republican and democrat leaders agree on alot more than they'll ever tell you--they agree that the political power in this country should ALWAYS rest with the democrats or the republicans, and they agree that only those two ideologies should ever be given to the public for consideration, and they agree that even though one of those two dominating parties is in power one day, the tide will turn back to the other party eventually. Bush and Gore were both very happy candidates, as they knew one of them would be in power, and the system as a whole would be in power regardless which candidate won. Never, in a million years, would they agree to let a Nader or a Buchannon or Perot upset the race by allowing them to debate. And even when they do let a 3rd party candidate in to the debates, it's just a token gesture, just for shits and giggles.

As long as Americans are complacent with the two party system, being played like fiddles, nothing will change for the better in this country.

[TerrorEd]

Kashtin, I hear where yer comin' from, the losses you and your family endured, words kinda escape me. Your Uncle sounds like an honest, hard-working, dependable sorta guy. It sucks that his business got trashed.

I wasn't there, physically or geographically (sp?). I was 15 years old when KS came down, just like this guy:A Story Is Like A Pancake, No Matter How Thick Or Thin It Is, It Has Two Sides... (http://www.spectacle.org/595/kent.html)

"Republican and democrat leaders agree on alot more than they'll ever tell you--they agree that the political power in this country should ALWAYS rest with the democrats or the republicans, and they agree that only those two ideologies should ever be given to the public for consideration, and they agree that even though one of those two dominating parties is in power one day, the tide will turn back to the other party eventually."

I've always been a die-hard Union Guy, I've always voted for the Union's choice. The times, they are-a-changin'...

How (http://www.thehowcafe.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=27)

Ed.

[Heartland]

Great post, Base. I fervently wish there was a viable third party in this country. Until that third party has the money to compete, which comes from the corporations (of course) they can't compete with the two major parties. Until Americans grow a brain and stop voting for looks and sound bytes, nothing will change.

I like some of the Libertarian platform, but not all of it. I'd love to have a People's party that would actually represent and work for the average citizens in this country, and make the huge profit-mongering corporations pay their own way.

The democrats are only a shadow of their former selves because they're running scared from the religious right. They're so afraid that they might be dubbed "ungodly" that they've become ridiculous to watch. They are so far into the center and leaning right that they might as well be absorbed into the Republican party. There are a few exceptions, but they are shrinking before our eyes.

Unfortunately, voting for me in the past 25 years has gone from ideals and beliefs to voting for the lesser of two evils. Not a good thing.

[Cartman]

Living in a free society comes with risks. We can't limit our freedoms just to limit those risks, because if we do so, we'll cease to be the United States of America, and everything this country was founded on will rendered bogus and obsolete. Horse Pucky!

No Constitutional Guarantees have been eroded or overturned! No laws have been enacted against peaceful protesting!

America will still be the "Land of the Free" even if the local library has to report that you checked out a copy of "How to build a Bomb".

That report from the library, along with the report that you purchased 500 pound of fertilizer, will go a long way towards saving innocent lives.

Lives of Americans!

Lives of Americans who also have rights and freedoms - like the freedom to live and the right not to be blown up by some whacko that learned how to make a bomb at the local library.

Nothing in our Constitution guarantees you the right to secretly train to build bombs (the bomb thing is just an example).

You want these rights because Americans have always traditionally had them - not because they are guaranteed by the Constitution.

As long as Americans are complacent with the two party system, being played like fiddles, nothing will change for the better in this country. The United States has always had a two-party system - ALWAYS!

... yet you want to change that?

If it has always been that way - it must be a Constitutional guarantee - right?

..

[Powerhouse]

No laws have been enacted against peaceful protesting!

..


True. But the problem is that the white house and associated agencies break the existing laws by quaranteening people to illegal 'protest zones' or use other illegal tactics and abuses of authority to deny peaceful protestors their constitutional rights.
These illegal activities are eventually overturned in court, but deny the plaintiffs little if any remedy. Without significant punisment remedies these illegal government activities will continue.
And the game goes on.

[kim]

we could buy a party...

if everybody pitches in it wouldn't cost that much...

:lol

- really it's true...

[Kiheicat]

we could buy a party...

if everybody pitches in it wouldn't cost that much...


:1clap3:

[Kashtin]

I wasn't there, physically or geographically (sp?). I was 15 years old when KS came down, just like this guy:A Story Is Like A Pancake, No Matter How Thick Or Thin It Is, It Has Two Sides...





I figured after posting the timeline to who started, and when the violent destruction started someone would come in with a "Well there are two sides to every story" post. The violence was started by students, continued by students. The only first hand accounts in this thread are mine, and Alan Canfora's. And those accounts agree on damn near every point, except I think they may have lighteded it up a bit, but I expected that.

The credit for the timeline goes to Alan Canfora, and the May 4th. task force.

Remember Alan?

Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre of 1970.

Nine students were wounded: Joseph Lewis, John Cleary,
Thomas Grace, Robbie Stamps, Donald Scott MacKenzie, Alan Canfora,
Douglas Wrentmore, James Russell and Dean Kahler.


Here's the right wing, wrong side of the story I've quoted. (http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~paulsjo/KentState.html)

[10x]

"The United States has always had a two-party system - ALWAYS!

... yet you want to change that?"

Yep get rid of it, then we might get a leader instead of a puppet.

[Kiheicat]

You mean someone who actually knows how to manage? Does. not. compute...

[kim]

i think you are confused - kashtin - the timeline - you posted - lists the invasion of cambodia - as the first incedence of violence...

[kim]

crap - "i"...

[kim]

how long will that war go on...?

all my life - it has never stopped...

kazoo - said that - just the other day - another friend of hers - has just recently - died from it...

how far back did it extend...?

one of the names on - the wall is:

robert m. bennet - birthdate january 1st - 1900 - killed in - viet nam...

as well - my last name - is on that wall - too - my cousin - came home from there - in a casket...

nothing you can say - no way you can ever twist it - kashtin - can change - what it means - to me...

so - your point - ? - this argument - which you are trying to win here - ? - is that:

people who are angry and upset about all the killing and violence going on - who express their anger - by - your word - "violence" - towards - property - (which - btw - i'm really beginning to wonder if you value property over life) - ought be killed...???

kashtin - there is no fucking winning situation going on here...

[Buffalo]

Usually the country rallies around a president in times of crises.

Bush has even screwed that up.

He will be impeached.

No question. :)

[Kashtin]

how long will that war go on...?

all my life - it has never stopped...

kazoo - said that - just the other day - another friend of hers - has just recently - died from it...

how far back did it extend...?

one of the names on - the wall is:

robert m. bennet - birthdate january 1st - 1900 - killed in - viet nam...

as well - my last name - is on that wall - too - my cousin - came home from there - in a casket...

nothing you can say - no way you can ever twist it - kashtin - can change - what it means - to me...

so - your point - ? - this argument - which you are trying to win here - ? - is that:

people who are angry and upset about all the killing and violence going on - who express their anger - by - your word - "violence" - towards - property - (which - btw - i'm really beginning to wonder if you value property over life) - ought be killed...???

kashtin - there is no fucking winning situation going on here...





My argument was with the statement that Kent State was a non-violent protest.

no way you can ever twist it - kashtin

You have twisted it to include everyone killed in VietNam. The residents of Kent Ohio had nothing to do with VietNam, and did not deserve to have their property destroyed. You can "forgive the poor protesters", 'cause the government just made 'em so damn mad. I can not.

You accuse me:

i'm really beginning to wonder if you value property over life

You can't win on the merits of the argument, so wonder away and attack the person instead of the accuracy of the post.

Please either admit to the point that Kent State was not a peaceful protest, as Canfora has stated that it was not, or argue that it was. That is the only point I've brought up in this thread. Your anti-war agenda can be put forth elsewhere. I've never said VietNam was right, only that the people destroying private property in Kent were wrong.

[10x]

Kent State

Hmm had a freind recently ( last two years) that was murdered. He was there, and it messed him up . Survivers guilt. Made him crazy.

[Heartland]

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, Roy.

[agentorange]

Roy, you didn't take your friend to a campground did you?

Okay, that was bad. I'm sorry too :(

[kim]

you're acting as if the war in viet nam had nothing to do with it - bullshit kashitin - that's why people were protesting...

and you - still seem to me to be saying - are you - ??? - don't answer if you don't want - but - i will wonder if you think it - that people deserved to die because of destroyed property - as well - i also ought have added before - RANDOM people - what the hell - kashtin...

[justjg]

A president now isn't what a president used to be. A president of the US is simply the titular head of a set and group of people who have an agenda they want supported by the leadership of a country.

Impeaching George Bush will not solve any of the issues.

Why did the American people clearly vote this party and group of people back in? (rhetorical question) :)

The challenge is what to do next election.

[kim]

kashtin - sorry for the typo up there...

[Kiheicat]

I wish ...that we had a President who could think, speak, and act for himself. A President who didn't get rehearsed sound bytes but actually spoke from his heart, spontaneously and sincerely. A President without speech writers. A President who took the valuable time to write down what it is that he actually wanted to say and then said it.

[justjg]

Kcat that could never happen because people don't want that.

People don't want honest or trustworthy politicians.

People are stupid. Sheeplike. They buy the advertising and have been educated to do so.

It's a very scary world we live in sadly.

I live in a country where our Prime Minister's personal and family wealth is kept offshore.

Can you tell me why any citizen would respect tax laws or authority when your leader is a sleaze?

Yet he was voted in and probably win the next election.

No, it's not government. It's us. We abuse our vote or waste it.

[Buffalo]

So many Americans who had felt pride in our country now feel anguish and shame, for the current regime of blood, wounds and fire.

[kim]

TODAY'S BIRTHDAY'S ON THE WALL:

EMMITT COLON ADAMS
Army - PFC - E3
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - ISOM , KENTUCKY

JOHNNY BOYD ALBRITTON Army - SGT - E5
1st Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - FARMERVILLE , LOUISIANA

HENRY LEWIS ALLEN Air Force - MAJ - O4
Age - 34
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - DAYTONA BEACH , FLORIDA

ALEXANDER AUDREY AMES Army - SP5 - E5
11th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

RONALD CARLIS ANDERSON Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - COLUMBUS , GEORGIA

JAMES VINCENT ANTOLINI Army - SGT - E5
25th Infantry Division
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - NORTON , WEST VIRGINIA

LARRY CLAYTON BANKS Army - PFC - E3
1st Infantry Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - NASHVILLE , INDIANA

WILLIAM THOMAS BANNA JR Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

JOSEPH WAYNE BENEDICT Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - JACKSONVILLE , FLORIDA

DANIEL F BETTENCOURT JR Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - SAN DIEGO , CALIFORNIA

DAN ARTHUR BOLTON JR
Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - NASHVILLE , TENNESSEE

HARRY JAMES BOSTON Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - CONOVER , NORTH CAROLINA

PETER JOSEPH BOUCHARD Army - SGT - E5
9th Infantry Division
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - LOWELL , MASSACHUSETTS

ROBERT JAMES BRADY Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - ELIZABETH , NEW JERSEY

JAMES DALE BREWER Army - SP4 - E4
4th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - LONG BOTTOM , OHIO

RONALD JOSEPH BRISSETTE Army - PFC - E3
1st Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - WOONSOCKET , RHODE ISLAND

[kim]

TODAY'S BIRTHDAY'S ON THE WALL CONTINUED:

CLARENCE FRANK BRISTOL Army - SP4 - E4
1st Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - ST IGNATIUS , MONTANA

BARRY LYNN BROWN Air Force - CAPT - 03
1st AVN BDE
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - DOWELL , ILLINOIS

KENNETH HYRUM BROWN Army - PFC - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - PROVO , UTAH

NORMAN DALE BROWN Army - SP5 - E5
101st Airborne Division
Age - 29
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - MELBOURNE , FLORIDA

WILLIAM FRANK BROWNING
Army - PFC - E3
USARV
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - SAN DIEGO , CALIFORNIA

NELTON RAYMOND BRYANT Marine Corps - SGT - E5
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - TYLERTOWN , MISSISSIPPI

WILLIAM ROBERT BURT JR Army - SP5 - E5
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

LAWRENCE J BUYNOSKI III Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - JACKSON , MICHIGAN

JAMES HENRY CAMPBELL JR Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - CHICAGO , ILLINOIS

JOE CARRILLO JR Army - 1LT - O2
Age - 27
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - TUCSON , ARIZONA

EDWARD CARROLA Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - SACRAMENTO , CALIFORNIA

MICHAEL CARROLL Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - DE WITT , NEW YORK

CARL LEE CARSON Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - MIDDLEBURY CENTER , PENNSYLVANIA

ROBERT F CHAMBERLAIN Army - WO - W1
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - LAS CRUCES , NEW MEXICO

WILLIAM FRANK BROWNING
Army - PFC - E3
USARV
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - SAN DIEGO , CALIFORNIA

NELTON RAYMOND BRYANT Marine Corps - SGT - E5
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - TYLERTOWN , MISSISSIPPI

WILLIAM ROBERT BURT JR Army - SP5 - E5
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

LAWRENCE J BUYNOSKI III Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - JACKSON , MICHIGAN

JAMES HENRY CAMPBELL JR Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - CHICAGO , ILLINOIS

JOE CARRILLO JR Army - 1LT - O2
Age - 27
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - TUCSON , ARIZONA

EDWARD CARROLA Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - SACRAMENTO , CALIFORNIA

MICHAEL CARROLL Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - DE WITT , NEW YORK

CARL LEE CARSON Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - MIDDLEBURY CENTER , PENNSYLVANIA

ROBERT F CHAMBERLAIN Army - WO - W1
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - LAS CRUCES , NEW MEXICO

JAMES EDWARD CONKRIGHT
Army - SGT - E5
4th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - OWENSBORO , KENTUCKY

SYLVESTER E CONLEY JR Army - PFC - E3
101st Airborne Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - MAXTON , NORTH CAROLINA

JAMES WILLIAM COOPER Army - SP5 - E5
9th Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - HOUSTON , TEXAS

THOMAS LLOYD CRAVENS Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - CINCINNATI , OHIO

CHARLES DAVID CROSBY Army - PFC - E3
101st Airborne Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - ORLANDO , FLORIDA

PETE FRANK CRUZ Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - CHUALAR , CALIFORNIA

KEITH ROYAL WILSON CURRY Navy - CDR - O5
Age - 40
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1930
From - SALEM , WEST VIRGINIA

[kim]

PAGE 3 - TODAY'S BIRTHDAY'S ON THE WALL - CONTINUED...

JERRY JAMES CURTIS Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - CAMDEN , ARKANSAS

WILLIAM DON DAUGHERTY Army - PFC - E3
4th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - CLINTON , TENNESSEE

HOWARD HADDEN DEAN Marine Corps - SGT - E5
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - HARRODSBURG , KENTUCKY

JAMES EDWARD CONKRIGHT
Army - SGT - E5
4th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - OWENSBORO , KENTUCKY

SYLVESTER E CONLEY JR Army - PFC - E3
101st Airborne Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - MAXTON , NORTH CAROLINA

JAMES WILLIAM COOPER Army - SP5 - E5
9th Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - HOUSTON , TEXAS

THOMAS LLOYD CRAVENS Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - CINCINNATI , OHIO

CHARLES DAVID CROSBY Army - PFC - E3
101st Airborne Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - ORLANDO , FLORIDA

PETE FRANK CRUZ Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - CHUALAR , CALIFORNIA

KEITH ROYAL WILSON CURRY Navy - CDR - O5
Age - 40
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1930
From - SALEM , WEST VIRGINIA

JERRY JAMES CURTIS Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - CAMDEN , ARKANSAS

WILLIAM DON DAUGHERTY Army - PFC - E3
4th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - CLINTON , TENNESSEE

HOWARD HADDEN DEAN Marine Corps - SGT - E5
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - HARRODSBURG , KENTUCKY

ROBERT THOMAS ELLIOTT III
Army - 1LT - O2
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - ANCHORAGE , ALASKA

TOMMY GENE ELLIOTT Army - PFC - E3
1st Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - CLINTON , ILLINOIS

GERALD MARTIN FARRELL Army - SP4 - E4
9th Infantry Division
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1941
From - BLACK RIVER , NEW YORK

MICHAEL JOHN FLEMING Army - SGT - E5
11th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - ST PAUL , MINNESOTA

PETER FLETCHER Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - HUDSON , NEW HAMPSHIRE

HERMAN BERNARD GAILLIARD Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - CHARLESTON , SOUTH CAROLINA

RAYMOND GARCIA JR Army - PFC - E3
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - SAN DIEGO , CALIFORNIA

CHARLES JOSEPH GARITY JR Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - FLUSHING , NEW YORK

WILLIAM RAYMOND GAST Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - JACKSONVILLE BEACH , FLORIDA

MARVIN EDWARD GAY Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - LEXINGTON , KENTUCKY

ROBERT EARLE GODING
Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - ASHLAND , MAINE

ERIC STUART GOLD Army - SGT - E5
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - CHARLOTTE , NORTH CAROLINA

WILLIAM JACOB GOLDBERG Army - PFC - E3
4th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - MIAMI , FLORIDA

GORDON J GRAHAM Army - PFC - E3
25th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - YALE , MICHIGAN

THOMAS GRANT Army - PSGT - E7
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 37
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1930
From - ORANGEBURG , SOUTH CAROLINA

RICHARD WILLIAM HAGEL Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - HAYWARD , CALIFORNIA

BILLIE ALLEN HALL Army - SSGT - E6
Special Forces
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - SAND SPRINGS , OKLAHOMA

CHARLES DAVID HARDIE Navy - AE2 - E5
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - HOUSTON , TEXAS

[kim]

PAGE 4 - TODAY'S BIRTHDAY'S ON THE WALL - CONTINUED...

WILLIAM HARP Army - SGT - E5
9th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - POMPANO BEACH , FLORIDA

WILLIAM AARON HARTER Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - KNIGHTSTOWN , INDIANA

TIMOTHY JAMES HARTMAN
Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - LOCKNEY , TEXAS

GARY LEE HEEMAN Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - SAYRE , PENNSYLVANIA

HAROLD JAMES HELLBACH Marine Corps - CAPT - O3
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - NEW ORLEANS , LOUISIANA

ANDREW L HENRY Army - PFC - E3
1st Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - JACKSON , MISSISSIPPI

MICHAEL JAMES HILLER Marine Corps - CPL - E4
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - PHOENIX , ARIZONA

PHILLIP MASON HINES Navy - HM3 - E4
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - DODGE CITY , KANSAS

TERRY ALAN HODGES Army - SGT - E5
25th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - CHARLOTTE , NORTH CAROLINA

BOBBY LEE HOLZER Air Force - SSGT - E5
Age - 38
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1931
From - HOT SPRINGS , ARKANSAS

JOHN ARTHUR HOOKER Army - SSGT - E6
9th Infantry Division
Age - 29
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1938
From - GREENVILLE , SOUTH CAROLINA

JAMES FREDRICK HOPKINS Air Force - A1C - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

RICHARD THOMAS HUGGETT
Army - SP4 - E4
25th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - POQUOSON , VIRGINIA

ROBERT HOWARD INGRAM Army - SP4 - E4
1st Signal Brigade
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - CHULA VISTA , CALIFORNIA

JOE JOHN JANAK Army - PFC - E3
25th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - COLUMBUS , TEXAS

LEE BRIAN JARVIS Marine Corps - SGT - E5
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - BERWYN , ILLINOIS

VERNE DE WITT JOHNSON III Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - OGDEN , UTAH

MATEO JUAREZ Army - SGT - E5
11th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 31
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - JOLIET , ILLINOIS

FRANCIS JOSEPH JURANIC JR Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - TRENTON , NEW JERSEY

DAVID KNOX Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - DOLTON , ILLINOIS

DONALD RICHARD KREGELOH Army - SP4 - E4
1st Signal Brigade
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - HOLLYWOOD , FLORIDA

JIMMY KUHLENHOELTER Army - SP4 - E4
Americal
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - BOWLING GREEN , KENTUCKY

EDWARD JOSEPH KULIKOWSKI
Army - CPL - E4
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - SIMPSON , PENNSYLVANIA

HERBERT CYRIL LANGENHORST Army - CPL - E4
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - GERMANTOWN , ILLINOIS

BILLY GUINN LANGLEY Army - CPL - E4
196th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - NELSON , GEORGIA

APIMENIO LARA Army - SGT - E5
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - UPLAND , CALIFORNIA

DAVID ALLEN LARSON Army - CPL - E4
4th Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - BELCOURT , NORTH DAKOTA

WILLIAM FRANCIS LARSON Army - SP5 - E5
199th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - SILVERTON , OREGON

JAMES ANDREW LEE Navy - SN - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - GLOBE , ARIZONA

WILLIAM LEE Navy - AN - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - CHESTERTON , INDIANA

FREDERICK WILLIAM LENNON Army - SP4 - E4
Special Forces
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - SIOUX CITY , IOWA

DANNY LEONARD LITTLE Army - SSGT - E6
Special Forces
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - ABILENE , TEXAS

DENNIS FRANKLIN LORDEN
Army - SP4 - E4
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - NASHUA , NEW HAMPSHIRE

KENNETH JAY MANDERFELD Army - PFC - E3
101st Airborne Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - EVERGREEN PARK , ILLINOIS

PAUL EDWARD MANSKE Army - PFC - E3
4th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - OSHKOSH , WISCONSIN

GARY WAYNE MARTINI Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - PORTLAND , OREGON

ANDREW MATYAS Air Force - LTC - O5
Age - 45
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1922
From - CAMDEN , NEW JERSEY

DANNY JAY MC GRIFF Army - PFC - E3
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - FRESNO , CALIFORNIA

[kim]

PAGE 5 - TODAY'S BIRTHDAY'S ON THE WALL - CONTINUED...

IAN MC INTOSH Army - WO - W1
101st Airborne Division
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - CANADA

JOHN WILLIAM MEDLIN Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - HOUSTON , TEXAS

JAMES LEE MERRICK JR Navy - LT - O3
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - AMES , IOWA

JOSEPH ANTHONY MILLER JR Navy - RM3 - E4
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - LEBANON , PENNSYLVANIA

STEVEN RICHARD MILLER
Army - PFC - E3
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - PRESTON , MINNESOTA

GRAHAM LONNIE MILLS Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - PORTSMOUTH , VIRGINIA

MICHAEL DAVID MINER Army - PFC - E3
9th Infantry Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - BROWNFIELD , PENNSYLVANIA

ROBERT E MINO Army - PFC - E3
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

CHARLES RICHARD MORGAN Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - RAYVILLE , LOUISIANA

LARRY HAROLD MORGAN Army - SP5 - E5
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - GRAND MARSH , WISCONSIN

CHARLES LEWIS MOSS JR Army - SP4 - E4
1st Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - JAMAICA , NEW YORK

JOHN LARRY MOTLEY JR Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - BIRMINGHAM , ALABAMA

JOHN TURNER MULLAN Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - SEATTLE , WASHINGTON

DONALD MARTIN MUNDEN Army - PFC - E3
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - QUAIL VALLEY , CALIFORNIA

DONALD LEROY MURPHY
Navy - SN - E3
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - STEELTON , PENNSYLVANIA

EARL NELSON Army - SSGT - E6
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - MEMPHIS , TENNESSEE

DONALD LEE NIXON Army - CPL - E4
1st Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - PINE LAWN , MISSOURI

CHARLES DOUGLAS NOWLIN Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - MEMPHIS , TENNESSEE

RICHARD NOYOLA Army - SP4 - E4
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - LOS ANGELES , CALIFORNIA

WILLIAM GEORGE NUEBEL JR Army - PFC - E3
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - EAST WILLISTON , NEW YORK

DUANE VIRGIL OLSON Army - SP4 - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - ARENA , WISCONSIN

REO OWENS Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - SANTA MONICA , CALIFORNIA

JAIME PARRILLA-CALDERON Army - SP4 - E4
4th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - RIO GRANDE , PUERTO RICO

STEVEN DUANE PAXSON Army - SGT - E5
4th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - TOPEKA , KANSAS

LARRY WYNN PETETT
Army - 2LT - O1
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - SHAWNEE MISSION , KANSAS

DANIEL JOSEPH PIOTROWSKI Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - JACKSON , MICHIGAN

WAYNE MONROE PITTS Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - PENSACOLA , FLORIDA

JEROME PRYOR Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - TOLEDO , OHIO

LASZIO RABEL Army - SSGT - E6
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 29
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1939
From - MINNEAPOLIS , MINNESOTA

CHARLES EDWARD REINER Army - PFC - E3
9th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - RYE , NEW YORK

EDWIN MICHAEL RIDENOUR Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - YUMA , ARIZONA

TERRY MARTIN RIMES Army - SMAJ - E9
1st Infantry Division
Age - 44
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1922
From - THOMASVILLE , GEORGIA

WILLIAM HENRY RODDICK Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - HIGHLAND , CALIFORNIA

LAWRENCE F RUNEY Army - 2LT - O1
25th Infantry Division
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1941
From - BRISTOL , PENNSYLVANIA

VINCENT F SABATINELLI
Army - CAPT - O3
Special Forces
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - SOUTHBRIDGE , MASSACHUSETTS

JOHN LLOYD SAUNDERS Navy - LT - O3
Age - 27
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - PHILADELPHIA , PENNSYLVANIA

MICHAEL LYNN SCISNEY Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - INDIANAPOLIS , INDIANA

JOHN CHARLES SEAMAN JR Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - SPRING VALLEY , CALIFORNIA

WILLIAM ROBERT SILVER Army - SSGT - E6
MACV Advisors
Age - 31
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1935
From - JACKSONVILLE , FLORIDA

LARRY ROY SIMS Army - SSGT - E6
1st Infantry Division
Age - 21
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - ROLLING MEADOWS , ILLINOIS

JOHN CLIFFORD SMITH III Army - SP5 - E5
25th Infantry Division
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1945
From - PACOLET , SOUTH CAROLINA

JAMES VERDELL SOLOMON Army - SP4 - E4
1st Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - FAIRFIELD , ILLINOIS

RYUZO SOMMA Army - SSGT - E5
25th Infantry Division
Age - 22
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - MEDFORD , NEW YORK

MILTON EARL SPEARS Army - PFC - E3
25th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - LONGVIEW , WASHINGTON

HARREL EARL STEARNS
Army - CPL - E4
101st Airborne Division
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - NACOGDOCHES , TEXAS

STEVEN RAY STOLTZ Army - SGT - E5
173rd Airborne Brigade
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - HAMPTON , IOWA

STEVEN JOHN SURMA Army - PFC - E3
25th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - WAUBAY , SOUTH DAKOTA

LOUIS ROBERT SUSTERSIC Army - CAPT - O3
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1943
From - BLAINE , OHIO

PHIL TABB Army - CAPT - O3
Age - 31
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1934
From - COLQUITT , GEORGIA

WILLIE JUNIOR THIGPEN Army - SGT - E5
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - OCALA , FLORIDA

JOHN R THORNHILL III Army - PFC - E3
1st Cav Division (AMBL)
Age - 18
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - ROANOKE , VIRGINIA

FRANCIS JOSEPH THORPE Marine Corps - GSGT - E7
Age - 47
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1923
From - NORFOLK , MASSACHUSETTS

CARL HARVEY TORELLO Army - SFC - E7
Special Forces
Age - 38
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1927
From - BALDWINSVILLE , NEW YORK

MICHAEL PATRICK TROLIA Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - OAK LAWN , ILLINOIS

JOSEPH MICHAEL VAN DANIKER
Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - JOPPA , MARYLAND

PAUL PHILLIP VANOVER Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 24
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1941
From - CASTRO VALLEY , CALIFORNIA

JOHN DELANE VOLNER Army - PFC - E3
4th Infantry Division
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1946
From - LEXINGTON , TENNESSEE

EARL WELDON WATKINS JR Marine Corps - PFC - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1948
From - DECATUR , GEORGIA

GREGORY LYNN WEBB Navy - AA - E2
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - COVERT , MICHIGAN

MOUNCE EDWARD WEST Army - PFC - E3
25th Infantry Division
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1949
From - PARAGOULD , ARKANSAS

JAMES EDWARD WILLIAMS JR Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 20
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1947
From - OKLAHOMA CITY , OKLAHOMA

NATHAN C WILLIAMS Army - PFC - E3
196th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 26
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1940
From - NEW YORK , NEW YORK

THOMAS ALBERT WILLIAMS Marine Corps - LCPL - E3
Age - 19
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1950
From - WILKES-BARRE , PENNSYLVANIA

JOHN LEO WOJCICKY Army - PFC - E3
9th Infantry Division
Age - 25
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1942
From - BALTIMORE , MARYLAND

WILLIAM ANDREW WRIGHT
Army - SSGT - E6
Age - 36
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1930
From - HOPKINSVILLE , KENTUCKY

EUGENE ZEIGLER Army - SP4 - E4
199th Light Infantry Brigade
Age - 23
Date of Birth - Sep 21, 1944
From - MONTGOMERY , ALABAMA

[Kiheicat]

wow :(

[agentorange]

I wish ...that we had a President who could think, speak, and act for himself. A President who didn't get rehearsed sound bytes but actually spoke from his heart, spontaneously and sincerely. A President without speech writers.
I think we have that in GW Bush. You'd have a hard time convincing me that the gibberish he stammers out was actually written by a professional speech writer! Everytime he's forced to do a live press conference, he's like a deer caught in the headlights, his eyes wander, he hooks his neck to the side, does some sorta pelvic tilt, shoves his hands forward and attempts to pound out a few sage words. I don't believe for a minute he's reading it, or that it was written for him, because if Bush's speeches are written for him whoever is doing it needs tried for treason. Bush's aides probably don't write speeches for Bush because they know he can't read them anyway. They try desperately to make Bush follow in the steps of Reagan, but the only problem is, Reagan was a great actor who could give an off the cuff speech for hours on end without skipping a beat--Bush cannot. It's embarassing to listen to him stutter and stammer. I'm ashamed of him. The most inept president since Carter, and I think he's broken Carter's record. I wish they'd send George back to the ranch and send out Papa Cheney. At least he's intelligent. If I hear another "ummm, uhhhh mmmmm" pep rally I'm going to scream. Papa Cheney, please take over!

Wilfred Brimley 2008!!!

[TerrorEd]

:(

Ramona, I think the the second saddest thing about that list is the ages of the deceased. Most of them were under the age of 30. All of them had a lot of living yet to be done. The saddest thing, that list comes from a set of 366.

:(

Ed.

[kim]

yep - very sad... :(

[Cyber Diva]

Kent State

Hmm had a friend recently ( last two years) that was murdered. He was there, and it messed him up . Survivers guilt. Made him crazy.

That's really sad, Roy! Sorry for your loss. :sm1130:

[Kiheicat]

base, yes I know exactly what you mean :1rotfl2:
And I agree, the impromptu off the cuff stammerfest should indeed be credited to his own pegged moron factor.
Also agree about Reagan - that man could spin some bullshit and make you think it was silk. ;)
What I was talking about, however, was the big written speeches. You know, the ones that scripted for "inspiration" and "comfort" to appease the little minds of the little people. (Those are the ones that Bush s.l.o.w.l.y. pronounces the big words cos he doesn't really know them and then lets a little smile out when he says 'one of them nickel words'.) People actually believe that he thought this shit up, and its a disgrace not only to hear a puppet reciting words he doesn't know but to hear people eat it up and believe that his words are actually his words.

[krisinluck]

Every mass gathering of people, be it a football game, a catastrophe, or a protest, will have unruly people. Some are unruly. Most are peaceful. Or most are unruly, and some are peaceful. The constitution doesn't protect unruly, violent protestors, but it does protect peaceful demonstrators and so it's up to our judicial system to weed out the bad apples while protecting the good apples. What appears to be happening now is legislation that prevents both the good and the bad from exercising their rights based on the notion that "there's always some bad apples who will commit crimes", which is wrong.

Living in a free society comes with risks. We can't limit our freedoms just to limit those risks, because if we do so, we'll cease to be the United States of America, and everything this country was founded on will rendered bogus and obsolete. As far as the political tower "eventually leaning the other way", as in favor of the democrats, I certainly hope not. Neither way it's been leaning lately is, be it to the right or the left, in our national interest (most specifically, in the interests of this nation's citizens). Republican and democrat leaders agree on alot more than they'll ever tell you--they agree that the political power in this country should ALWAYS rest with the democrats or the republicans, and they agree that only those two ideologies should ever be given to the public for consideration, and they agree that even though one of those two dominating parties is in power one day, the tide will turn back to the other party eventually. Bush and Gore were both very happy candidates, as they knew one of them would be in power, and the system as a whole would be in power regardless which candidate won. Never, in a million years, would they agree to let a Nader or a Buchannon or Perot upset the race by allowing them to debate. And even when they do let a 3rd party candidate in to the debates, it's just a token gesture, just for shits and giggles.

As long as Americans are complacent with the two party system, being played like fiddles, nothing will change for the better in this country.
Base, sometimes you make me rabidly pissed off...but I am glad to have the chance to see another side of you. This is not only how I see it, but it was stated very well.


.

[3Parrots]

I don't think I've been personally affected (in a big way) by the loss of personal freedoms...so far anyway. I'm ok with it.

Just saying.... :)

[10x]

3P it does not efect you so you dont worry about it yet.
If it effects you will you then??

Wont that be a little to late??

[bluekazoo]

Just a few comments ...

dusa, thank you ...

10x, I'm sorry about the loss of your friend ...

3p, when I read your post ^^ all I kept thinking about was this quote:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

-- Pastor Martin Niemöller


There's a big anti-war protest Saturday ... I found this quote a little while ago, while catching up on the news:

“We made a vow after Sept. 11 that we would not allow the anti-American left to do to us this time what they did during Vietnam, which was wear down the morale of the American,” FreeRepublic spokesman Kristinn Taylor said.

Interesting take on things ... I've always been proudly 'left' ... but I've also always considered myself pro-American ... I'm just not pro- bad government, pro- flag-waving, pro- propaganda, pro- being ruled by fear, or pro- war. I AM, however pro- freedom, pro- equality, pro- peace, and pretty much pro - cleaning up our own backyard FIRST before we bully our way in to clean up the neighbor's place.

The America I love is in there somewhere, screaming to get out ... I hope some day she makes it ... but some days my optimism wavers ...

[3Parrots]

Hi All

What should I worry about? It's an honest question... I'm not fooling around. :) I'd like to understand what y'all are saying. :)

I usually speak up when I see something I consider wrong or inappropriate...I say it once (or twice) and then try to move on/live/teach by example. Dingy person I can be tho'... :1bonk1:

Luv to you, Blue :1chirol_k

[bluekazoo]

What should you worry about?

Let me answer your question with some other questions, 3P, if I may ... I believe you're being honest, and it's a good starting point for good conversation ...

Do you think it's okay that the government can access your library reading lists and records of what books you buy?

Do you think it's okay that the government can now enter your home without a warrant?

Do you think it's okay that the government can detain people without cause?

Do you believe the government should have access to your medical history?

Those are all part and parcel of the Patriot Act and other legislation, to one degree or another.

How do you feel about those things? And I'm asking seriously, too ... because those things ALL bother the heck out of me ...

(I might not be back to this thread until later - it's pushing up onto time to eat because Survivor starts in about 45 minutes, but I will come back)

:)

[3Parrots]

Hi Blue,

To tell you the truth those things don't bother me.

It's my understanding that these powers won't be used indiscriminately. I understand that bad people could try to use these powers to hurt regular citizens (such as ourselves), but things have changed since 9/11. I guess we have to give up a little privacy to be safe...and trust our leaders (and those watching them to alert us to illegal activity) to do the right thing.? I can't think of any other way...

Additionally, in our information age (computers, etc.) I don't believe personal info. is really private. ie. medical records are sub-contracted and transcribed overseas.

I've got to start my evening birdie routine. I hope to come back later tonight, but I know you'll be in bed. :) If we miss each other, I'll be reading at TRS :1clap5:

[10x]

3P It always starts as "It's my understanding that these powers won't be used indiscriminately" and always ends up doing it for any reason chose. History shows us this.

[krisinluck]

It's my understanding that these powers won't be used indiscriminately. That's what they told us. They told us there were WOMD in Iraq, too. They told us Saddam was in bed with Osama, too. Al Queda has a better foothold in Iraq now then they did before we diverted the war on terror from Afghanistan to Iraq.I understand that bad people could try to use these powers to hurt regular citizens (such as ourselves), but things have changed since 9/11. I guess we have to give up a little privacy to be safe...and trust our leaders (and those watching them to alert us to illegal activity) to do the right thing.? I don't trust them. Not one bit.

You know what? I had a big explanation of why...but it's personal enough I'm not going to put it out here for public fodder. Let's just say I've brushed up against the very scary changes that our Homeland Security Act has inacted - and I live in a town of 1200 people and 265,543 cows.

I wish I could recapture some of your faith in the system, 3P. My life would be much easier.

[Kiheicat]

Do you think it's okay that the government can detain people without cause?
To tell you the truth those things don't bother me.
I can't believe for a second that if you were detained against your will for something that you had nothing to do with that you wouldn't be bothered. :1apileoff

[10x]

or worse exported to anouther country and electrocuted untill you talk.

Done today.

[3Parrots]

Kiheicat: "I can't believe for a second that if you were detained against your will for something that you had nothing to do with that you wouldn't be bothered."

If I were detained, I'd do my best to answer the questions. If it looked like I needed a lawyer, I'd call one.

Life isn't tidy. We live in especially difficult times...mistakes will be made, perhaps by all of us...no one is perfect.

Each of us must try to do the very best we can to carefully discuss the future of America. Everyone's voice is important. I'm happy to hear your voices even though I disagree.

[Heartland]

Argh!!!! I had a long post all typed out, with links and everything, and IE locked up on me! It took me an hour to write it. :1cryhard:

I've no time now, but I'll try to reproduce it later.

[kim]

i can see that you are unaware of the situation 3 parrots...

most lawyers are not willing to sign on to the $50 down payment collect phone call program which most jails use these days...

your guaranteed one free phone call is a thing of the past...

[3Parrots]

LOL, Ramona :)

I always carry my charged cell phone just in case my family needs me---and my husband and daughter like to know where I am and what I'm up to...sheesh...

Oh, and we have lawyers in the family so it's safe to say I'm covered. LOL.

[Kiheicat]

LOL, Ramona :)

I always carry my charged cell phone just in case my family needs me---and my husband and daughter like to know where I am and what I'm up to...sheesh...

Oh, and we have lawyers in the family so it's safe to say I'm covered. LOL.
Um you're not getting it. You can have your cell phone taken from you without getting to use it. You can start to dial and they'll slap that sonofabitch right out of your hand. They can question you for hours and hours and hours on end, and 'doing your best to answer the questions' is not enough if you're not telling them what they want to hear. You've obviously never been interrogated.
Your one phone call if you get it - what if nobody's home or wherever you're trying to reach? Or what if the line is busy. *Whoops, that was your one call*. You're fucked my friend and you can say what you would do all day long just like all the other ppl that the above has happened to but when it happens to you and you say "OMG this can't happen in Amerika", guess what cuz ... oh yes it can. And does. Every day.

[3Parrots]

Kiheicat,

At some point my family will look for me. Until then, I'll do my best to answer the questions.

[kim]

have a great time...

[kim]

p.s. i don't really believe anyone could be such an idiot - on the other hand - it's real easy for me to believe that - what i'm seeing - is - a paltry preformance...

[kim]

p.s. i don't really believe anyone could be such an idiot - on the other hand - it's real easy for me to believe that - what i'm seeing - is - a paltry performance...

[kim]

dang - tried to edit that in time - "performance"...

- throwing rotten apples...

[10x]

"At some point my family will look for me. Until then, I'll do my best to answer the questions."

Uder the rules today they will never find you. You will not even get a lawer. In other words Fucked.

Hell this can be done today by you having a joint and therefore suporting terrorists by purchasing and using such. It going to get way out of hand before all this is done.
It will get to the point of any thing can and will be an excuse to use the rules.

[Kiheicat]

Kiheicat,

At some point my family will look for me. Until then, I'll do my best to answer the questions.
OMG you're just too much! What if your family has been slaughtered and they are looking at you as the prime suspect??? Who are you going to wait for while you're being raped by the guards? Fucking Batman? Wake up!

[Heartland]

3P, before I get back to work on replicating my lost post, I have a question for you. You said:

and trust our leaders (and those watching them to alert us to illegal activity) to do the right thing.? Aside from the incredibly naive "trust" issue, can you tell me who exactly "those watching them" might be? Who exactly would you trust to alert you?

[3Parrots]

I've decided to learn more about the Patriot Act. I'll read up on it and ask my questions here: http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=92906&threadid=554260

[Kiheicat]

Does that mean you won't be answering the (entirely within the realm of possibility) hypotheticals posted for you here? Wow if you run that fast from this thread imagine the psychotic breakdown you could have under a real everyday investigation/interrogation/mind-melting session...
<shudder>

[agentorange]

It's important to note that a right to legal representation, the right to hear the charges alleged against you, the right to a fair and speedy trial no longer applies to detainees labeled as "terrorists" under the patriot act. That's what has so many up in arms--the people hauled off to Cuba cannot have a lawyer, and under the patriot act, they can be detained indefinately. Ask chopsbuster how long indefinite is (his sanction from ebay boards, lol). In addition, under patriot act II, "terrorists" doesn't just mean foreigners. It can now apply to domestic terrorism, and the famous FBI flyer that the feds handed out to law enforcement officers in Maricopa county outlines "hot to spot a domestic terrorist", and among the things listed is, quote: "people who carry pocket constitutions", "defenders of the US constitution from the federal government or the UN". It's frightening.
Read more about that flyer here:
http://www.infowars.com/constitutional_terrorists.htm

See it, for yourself!
Front page:
http://www.infowars.com/Images/fbi_flyer.jpg
Back page:
http://www.infowars.com/Images/fbi_flyer2.jpg

[Kiheicat]

...and if you have the misfortune of being labelled (correctly or incorrectly, sadly it doesn't really matter) terrorist, well... buh bye ...........................
Charged cell phone won't save your ass LOL

[Heartland]

I really hate it when people run off to another board to tattletale, instead of handling what they started. It's such a childish thing to do!

"Look Mommy, she was MEAN to me!"

Sheesh, indeed! Thanks for not answering my question!

If you're gone, you're gone, but before you go you should know that it will take a little more work than just reading the Patriot Act. You need to actually do a little research (I know, I know, the truth is just such a bother, isn't it?) to find out how the Patriot Act has been applied, or attempted to be applied.

Here are some keywords for you to Google, as I'm sure you would like to get to the truth:


Arab-American detainees
Iowa Drake anti-war protesters
librarians refuse records
Padillo detainment Nazi saboteurs
Patriot Act email records


Those are just a few to get you started. If you need any more assistance on your journey to enlightenment, feel free to ask.

[bluekazoo]

3P, I just read your link ...

I'm surprised at your walking away from the discussion here ... if there are posters you don't want to read, this board has an ignore feature (that works really well, I've used it, heh) ...

This is an important subject ... I'm glad you're going to do some research into the Patriot Act - Sandy's suggestion of googling various keywords is an excellent one, as it's important to read a variety of points of view about the Acts (I & II) ... I'd also recommend reading the Act itself, although it is enormous and not easy to digest, except in small pieces ... I've worked my way through a good section of it, but I have to do it piecemeal, or my eyes glaze over ...

I do wish, however, that rather than complain about somebody's post (at another board), you'd continue the conversation here ... I didn't see the post that got you up-in-arms, I'll go back and look, but quite honestly -- there are many of us here discussing this ... (added this part in: the only comment I can see is the 'idiot' one ... is THAT what got you all indignant? good grief, that's pretty mild stuff, considering the volatility of the subject matter -- if it was something else, I wish you'd point it out, cuz I can't find it) ...


I hope you change your mind and return for further discussion. I hardly see the necessity of everybody joining up over there, to be able to talk to one person about this, when we are ALL already members here and the conversation had already begun ... here.

By the way - something you (and others) don't often understand at first is that many of us have been politically active for YEARS ... we've seen the false arrests in person, we've dealt with jail systems and trumped up charges and Miranda-rights being tossed aside for a round of good-cop/bad-cop ... to the point where many of us are passionate about these issues ... sometimes it gets heated ... I guess I'd recommend that if you don't want to accept that people have strong feelings about politics, that you may find yourself happier posting in fluffier threads and avoiding the more confrontational topics ... (I tend toward fluff myself most of the time - with one exception: politics) ...

Oh well ... maybe you'd really rather not discuss it further ... that's cool ... the rest of us will muddle along anyway ...

(Sandy, I absolutely love your posts, I meant to tell you that earlier)

[Heartland]

You should've seen the post I lost! :1bonk1:

I love your posts too, Bluey. :1hug1:

[Kiheicat]

Group hug! :1hug3:

[Buffalo]

We got the biggest military in the world and no real threat but Muslim terrorists. Ostensibly, this military exists to "defend" the USA, and this is how we justify our defense budget to the electorate. In the old days their was no ambiguity in this regard, it was the War Department and the Secretary of War, but now it is the Defense Department and the Secretary of Defense. Important changes that help keep the big lie in place that we are defending ourselves when are an extremely aggressive and amoral bully militarily thorughout the Third World.

The reason is simple. American corporations need to get at Third World resources. To open up these markets sometimes military force must be used, and to maintain these markets a military presence must be kept. This has nothing to do with defense or peace. The whole idea is to achieve what we want economically by playing the trump card no other power on earth can compete with---brute force. To sell this amoral policy at home we have to create a chain of bogeymen, the average joe buys into this propaganda, and sees all the threats on the horizon as not only justifying our military expenditures and interventions, he is convinced, like poor, dangerously deluded Dave, that even this is NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

The rich and powerful folks who own our country know full well what happened with Chamberlain and Hitler and how appeasement allowed Hitler to escalate his aggression into a world war. They can always cite this example of what happens to the weak and unprepared. What people fail to realize is the Allies failed to act in the face of a proven and dangerous FIRST WORLD aggressor, and that is why they were foolish. Rattling our saber at Cuba and Nicaragua and Chile and invading Vietnam or Grenada or Iraq, twice, is being a dangerous aggressor, not fighting one.

The communist bogeyman is gone, so a new one must be created to justify military intervention in ripe Third World economic markets. Also, when these countries are invaded by the US, the costs of exploiting them economicially are not borne by the coporations. The American taxpayer pays for this, too, in five ways.

First, he pays in the blood of sons and daughters to stabalize the country for exploitation.

Second, the corporation isn't paying for the cost of this miltary involvement, we are. The military has become a defacto internal department of the corporations involved, another manpower option they apply for their private benefit, and it don't cost them a penny.

Third, humanitarian relief is approved by Congress for these stricken areas, and most of this money finds its way directly into the pockets of companies like Halliburton, through one government-approved scam or another.

Fourth, services contracts, bloated with pork, are given to companies like Halliburton, billions are siphoned off into corporate coffers every year this way.

Fifth, defense contractors gouge the living fuck out of the American taxpayer to supply this military which is just going to be exploited by them to make further profit anyway. The entire sytem is amoral and evil and no wonder the world's hate for us is deepening.

[Heartland]

Yes, that about sums up our foreign policy.