Coach Quits Because He Can't Lead Prayers

[Buffalo]

EAST BRUNSWICK, N.J. (AP) - A veteran central New Jersey high school football coach has resigned after being told by school officials he could no longer lead his team in pregame prayer.

East Brunswick coach Marcus Borden was told last Friday by Schools Superintendent Jo Ann Magistro that some parents had complained about prayers Borden initiated at pregame meals and before the games.
After being told he would have to stop leading or taking part in the prayers, Borden stepped down from his position, just hours before his team's 21-0 loss to Sayreville that evening.

"I'm very disappointed," Borden said in an interview with News 12 New Jersey Tuesday. "Do I feel we were violating someone's rights? I don't think so."

Guys like this do the school a favor. I can remember being lead in prayer in school sports, and it did NOT sit well with me, that I was forced to partake in this superstitious ritual in a public function.

According to school officials, the prayers violated the separation between church and state in public schools.

That's because they do.

A spokeswoman for the district, Trish LaDuca, said students have the right to pray on school property during school events, but the prayer must be initiated by the students; otherwise it violates the law.

Some students will intiate prayer so let them lead the members of the team similarly superstition duped.

But school officials, who emphasized that they did not force Borden to resign, said some students felt uncomfortable with the prayer and their concerns should be treated with respect.

Yep.

"I believe that I made the right decision," said Borden, a Catholic. "I believe I made a decision based on principle. I believe that's who I am."

I guess he doesn't believe the ballplayers objecting to prayer made their decision based on principle. I guess he don't believe that's who they are.

Borden could not immediately be reached for comment by The Associated Press Tuesday evening. There is no telephone listing in his name.

This is common enough. Any coach having his name in the phone book is foolish, as he will get crank calls, and worse. But he can lead prayer all he wants to now. Maybe coach at a private Catholic school, where superstition is honored as great truth.

Buff~

[Caped Crusader]

just hours before his team's 21-0 loss to Sayreville that evening.
Big loss, huh? :1rotfl2:

You know, if all the students on the team wanted him to lead them in prayer, and none of them objected, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Once their objections were expressed, however, it was nothing more than a case of some asshole attempting to ram his beliefs down the throats of a bunch of kids.

[Heartland]

Not that this is of any raging importance, but on "Survivor" right now, one of the tribes likes to pray together. One of the tribe members just goes along with it and pretends to pray with them, because he's afraid that if it becomes known that he's not interested in praying, they'll vote him out immediately.

If ADULTS feel that way, imagine how school kids feel about making those kinds of waves.

[Caped Crusader]

I'm sure this will come as a shock to you, but I was rather, uh... vocal... about being an atheist when I was in school. :2headspin

[Heartland]

Yeah, but I'm sure you weren't the average kid, either. Most kids just want to fit in, don't want to look or act different than the crowd. It's that peer pressure thing.

If more kids could be like you were, this school/prayer thing would've been put to rest a very long time ago.

[JavaNoire]

You know, if all the students on the team wanted him to lead them in prayer, and none of them objected, I wouldn't have a problem with it.I would. Public schools are an inappropriate place for 'official' prayer. Screw all the funky qualifiers used to make wrong smell right.

It's also damned difficult to trust assertions that *all* the students want to be led in prayer. Cultural & social pressures to conform in this area are HUGE.

Admit it...Atheists are worse than cannibals. Hell they're probably worse than gays & damned near as bad as liberal commie pinkos...

[Caped Crusader]

I would. Public schools are an inappropriate place for 'official' prayer. Screw all the funky qualifiers used to make wrong smell right.

It's also damned difficult to trust assertions that *all* the students want to be led in prayer. Cultural & social pressures to conform in this area are HUGE.

Admit it...Atheists are worse than cannibals. Hell they're probably worse than gays & damned near as bad as liberal commie pinkos...
I'm going to assume you were never on the school football team, Java. :2headspin

There's really nothing "official" about it. Football teams do a lot of things that aren't "official". Some of the kids really believe that prayer will help to protect them while they're on the field. I think it's just as silly as any other superstition, like wearing a certain pair of filthy socks, but that's how many of them think. My coach was pretty fucking religious, and we clashed on more than one occasion, but I never said anything about the team prayers. It was something my teammates wanted to do, and those of us who didn't want to do it were never pressured to join. It's a team thing, not a school thing, and since the four or five of us who objected were never asked a second time to do it, it simply was not a problem.

If we had been benched or worked harder over it, then yes, I would have raised bloody hell. Nothing like that happened, though, so it was no big deal.

[Heartland]

I think if some students take it upon themselves to pray before a game, there's nothing wrong with that. I also think there's nothing wrong if a student wants to stick pins in a voodoo doll of the other team's quarterback, or get on a prayer mat and stick their ass in the air, or light incense and say a few ohms, or dance around the locker room with little brooms swishing away the evil spirits, or drawing a pentagram and lighting black candles, or having a seance to invoke The Gipper.

The coach sounds like a colossal dumbass. All he had to do was tell the team they could do whatever they wanted to do amongst themselves, including nothing, and he could've prayed alongside any kid who wanted to lead their prayers. But no, he thinks they can't properly pray unless he leads it, so he'd rather walk away from them and leave them with no coach in mid-season.

[Kiheicat]

Just now seeing this thread and it looks as if you've covered my points, lol. Well posted :)

[Heartland]

and he could've prayed alongside any kid who wanted to lead their prayers. Oops, that's not right.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/4985842

"A representative of the school district cannot constitutionally initiate prayer, encourage it or lead it," LaDuca told the Home News Tribune of East Brunswick. "Representatives of the school cannot participate in the student-initiated prayer."

[Heartland]

Meanwhile, in Alabamy:

http://www.al.com/sports/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/sports/1128936017194880.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

'Let's bow our heads' illegal, yet common

Fear of ostracism often silences voices of challengers to resilient tradition

Monday, October 10, 2005
MIKE BOLTON
News staff writer

In this state that birthed the 1997 federal court ban on stadium-wide prayer at high school football games, some Alabama public schools still openly violate the law by allowing students or ministers to pray over stadium public address systems.

Much to the chagrin of the American Civil Liberties Union - the organization that brought the original lawsuit against DeKalb County Schools in 1996 - it's a practice that ACLU officials admit they are virtually powerless to stop.

While most school administrators in Alabama replaced pre-game prayers with moments of silence following the 1997 ruling, a smattering of Alabama high schools have continued prayers over the public address system and almost dare anyone to try to stop them.

Officials of the ACLU of Alabama say they have received a few complaints about public prayers prior to football games, but no one has stepped forward to fight the legal battle necessary to halt the practice.

"It's difficult for someone to come forward and complain about that kind of thing," said Robert Varley, an attorney for the ACLU of Alabama. "They would be ostracized by the community.

"When a woman in Brewton stepped forward and was supportive of us in the Ten Commandments case, her business literally dried up and she was literally forced to leave town. Most people can't afford to do that.

"As long as people feel threatened to come forward, it will probably continue," Varley said.

Backed by community support and often by community demands, some school officials are reluctant to halt stadium-wide prayer prior to high school football games though they know they are violating federal law.

"I know what the courts said," said first-year Etowah High principal John Serafino, who inherited a school that has never stopped allowing students to conduct a prayer over the stadium intercom prior to all Etowah High football games. "We choose to go by community standards.

"Religion and football go hand-in-hand in this state. A prayer before a football game is part of Southern sports.

"I've only been here since July. We did the same thing at Hokes Bluff where I was principal for six years. There has never been a complaint," Serafino said.

Etowah and Hokes Bluff are not alone.

Before a recent football game at Curry High in Jasper, the public address announcer asked fans to stand and bow their heads, then he recited a prayer.

"We have student-led prayer before each of our home games," Principal Bobby Gann said. "It is not something that is done by the school. It is done by our students and we think that's OK. If a student wants to come to the press box and lead a prayer, we allow them to do so. We've never had anyone to complain."

At J.B. Pennington High in Blountsville, each home football game begins with a prayer over the public address system by a minister. "A prayer before games is a long-standing tradition here," said Principal Craig Sosebee, who took the job two years ago. "That's what people in our community want."

Threat of retribution

The chances of anyone complaining about the practice are low, said Olivia Turner, executive director of the ACLU of Alabama.

That's because of the threat of community retribution - "being ostracized by students and getting the cold-shoulder treatment from teachers," she said.

"The whole family can feel this in the community. There are some pretty heavy consequences to pay," she said. "Very few take on their school boards, teachers or principals for fear of retribution against their children. It takes extraordinary backbone to make these complaints public and stick it out through a long public trial.

"People who are plaintiffs in cases like this get death threats."

In 1996, the ACLU sued on behalf of Michael Chandler, a vice principal at Valley Head High, and his son, Jesse, against school-sponsored religious activities in DeKalb County public schools. The lawsuit challenged a 1993 Alabama state law that allowed student-initiated prayers at student assemblies, graduation ceremonies and athletic contests.

In March 1997, in an appeal of the DeKalb case, federal Judge Ira DeMent struck down the 1993 Alabama statute. In June 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that public schools may not begin football games with organized prayer, even when recited by a student. In that ruling, the court said prayer in public schools must be private and that such prayers at high school football games violate the constitutionally required separation of church and state.

After the legal rulings, Valley Head High responded with the practice of inviting interested fans onto the field for prayer without a PA system. Currently, Valley Head uses the PA system to ask for a moment of silence.

[JavaNoire]

.

I'm going to assume you were never on the school football team, Java.Is it that obvious? Just thinking of football gives me hives.


Some of the kids really believe that prayer will help to protect them while they're on the field.Now where the fuck did I say they couldn't pray? I don't give a gnat's ass if they pray, or which deities they call upon or what they want their silly little gods to do for them. I am HUGELY (snottily) amused that the most ardent(vocal) Christians invoke their god for stuff like a football victory(& not mere safety). It was stupid enough when they were spouting God's position on the Panama Canal! Have these mokes no shame?

The coach should NOT be permitted to involve himself with religious matters in his capacity as a public school employee. He should not lead prayers, or publicly participate in them. IF he wants to silently, privately pray, who's to know or stop him?

But that's too much for him. Motherfucker just has to publicly jackoff with his personal religious beliefs. I'd like to gag & jail the louse. Our Bill of Rights is going the way of the dodo.

I strongly agree with court decisions that oppose even student led(organized) prayer at public functions. Is their god deaf? Blind, too? Do they think the dude won't hear 'em if they're not loud & making a spectacle of it?


Football teams do a lot of things that aren't "official".& college football players are all too often given a tremendous amt of leeway in their academic endeavors & behavior, ranging from financial shenanigans to sexual assault. That crap isn't 'official' either. Away from the playing field they aren't special (or shouldn't be).



[.]

[Heartland]

Java, let us pray .... Dear Jason/O Great Noodle God, please bring Java into the light so she stops typing in boldface and scaring everyone. Thank you, Amen, Hallelujah, pass the peas, please.

P.S. Please make the Colts win the Superbowl this year. I know you have other things on your mind, but this is more important, so do it, please. I promise I'll be good if you do. Thank you. Your humble servant in Sadie's noodles, Me.

[Kiheicat]

:1chirol_r

[Buffalo]

Dear Lord, please help us beat this other team even though there are true believers on the team we want you to help us beat unfairly, molesting the virtue of faith by asking you to help us win at a sporting contest when Katrina has killed a thousand and displaced hundreds of times that many, when what we should really be praying for is the salvation of our immortal soul not some dumb-arse high school football game! Oh, and while we got so many praying so hard and asking such a selfish favor of you, please add two full inches to my penis

We ask these things in the name of Jesus, amen!

[Caped Crusader]

Now where the fuck did I say they couldn't pray? I don't give a gnat's ass if they pray, or which deities they call upon or what they want their silly little gods to do for them. I am HUGELY (snottily) amused that the most ardent(vocal) Christians invoke their god for stuff like a football victory(& not mere safety). It was stupid enough when they were spouting God's position on the Panama Canal! Have these mokes no shame?

The coach should NOT be permitted to involve himself with religious matters in his capacity as a public school employee. He should not lead prayers, or publicly participate in them. IF he wants to silently, privately pray, who's to know or stop him?
Which part of, "Some of the kids really believe that prayer will help to protect them while they're on the field," did you not understand? When teams pray together, that's the focus of it.

And secondly, your coach is your leader, and if you're into that shit, you want him to lead you in prayer.

I strongly agree with court decisions that oppose even student led(organized) prayer at public functions. Is their god deaf? Blind, too? Do they think the dude won't hear 'em if they're not loud & making a spectacle of it?
The only thing public about a high school locker room is that it's public property. Other students are not allowed in there, so it's really kind of private. To be blunt, if the team wants the coach to lead them in prayer in the locker room, it's really none of your fucking business.

I didn't like how religious my coach was, and he didn't like how anti-religious I was. We didn't give each other shit about it, though. Even though we didn't like it, we still showed respect for one another. That's where this guy went wrong, by disrespecting the students who objected. It would have been so totally easy to have a discussion with the team about respecting the beliefs of others (you would be surprised at how quick a player is to listen to his coach about life stuff), and then inviting anyone who wants to pray to do so before each game. So very, very easy...

& college football players are all too often given a tremendous amt of leeway in their academic endeavors & behavior, ranging from financial shenanigans to sexual assault. That crap isn't 'official' either. Away from the playing field they aren't special (or shouldn't be).
First of all, I don't have any problems with college athletes getting some cash on the side. These kids lay their bodies on the line every week, the schools take in millions of dollars for it, and they're not even allowed to have jobs. When you step onto a field, and let some 250 lb. guy hit you, running at full speed, then you can criticize them for that. Until you do, it's about the same thing as if I was preaching about the immorality of abortion rights.

And secondly, don't you find it just a tad bit absurd to be comparing this to sexual assault?

I'm one of the most devoted atheists you'll ever meet in your life. I think religion is utterly silly, no different than an adult who still believes in the Tooth Fairy. I want the words "under god" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. I want the words "in god we trust" removed from our money (almost as much as the images of slave owners). I want the bible removed from courts of law, as well as the Presidential inauguration. But I also played football, so I know the other side of this coin. What's the difference in this coach trying to force prayer on a group of students who don't like it, and you saying a coach shouldn't be allowed to do it if none of the kids object? There's not one. It's just a bunch of people trying to force their views on others.

[JavaNoire]

.
Again, they can pray. Privately. IF it must be loud & obvious then not on school property or as part of school activities.

Which part of, "Some of the kids really believe that prayer will help to protect them while they're on the field," did you not understand? When teams pray together, that's the focus of it.So you say. Do some pray for safety? Probably & my response in no way denied that. I've seen any # of coaches, players & fans babbling there will be victory with Jesus on their side. Such prayers are obnoxious coming from the fans. They're obnoxious & illegal as a part of the team's activities.

And secondly, your coach is your leader, and if you're into that shit, you want him to lead you in prayer.Watch the use of 'your' please. I'll need to break out the Benadryl soon. Players & coaches that believe prayer must be an integral part of school sponsored football need to be in religious rather than secular schools.
The only thing public about a high school locker room is that it's public property. Other students are not allowed in there, so it's really kind of private.Right. The only thing public is that it's public property that is used for public school activities. It's illegal & inappropriate to use it for organized religious activity.
To be blunt, if the team wants the coach to lead them in prayer in the locker room, it's really none of your fucking business.I don't give a blue fuck for what the coach or the players want. My concern is only for what they do. Organized prayer within the framework of public education is wrong & illegal. Which, btw, does make it my fucking business.

I didn't like how religious my coach was, and he didn't like how anti-religious I was. We didn't give each other shit about it, though. Even though we didn't like it, we still showed respect for one another.Anecdotal & hardly universally applicable. I doubt if it's even widely applicable. Students are too often given serious shit when they stray from the religious right's line. Those breaking the church/state law are almost always conservative & fundamentalist in their beliefs. They don't brook opposition kindly.

Teachers can be hell. Peers can be much worse. State sponsored religion is wrong regardless of how popular it is. & I'm fucking sick of the yahoos blowing through good money trying to weasel around the law. IF it's that important they can & WILL pray privately.

That's where this guy went wrong, by disrespecting the students who objected.That & by disrespecting the USA Constitution, ie the law. As Sandy's article makes clear, that's pretty much par for the course in some places. The article she posted indicated that people are often coerced into toeing the Christian Right's line. Even adults are bullied & intimidated.

It would have been so totally easy to have a discussion with the team about respecting the beliefs of others (you would be surprised at how quick a player is to listen to his coach about life stuff), and then inviting anyone who wants to pray to do so before each game. So very, very easy...& so very, very wrong.

First of all, I don't have any problems with college athletes getting some cash on the side.I do. It's underhanded & wrong. I loathe sneaky. They should just pay em & quit pretending it's anything but business.

When you step onto a field, and let some 250 lb. guy hit you, running at full speed, then you can criticize them for that. Until you do, it's about the same thing as if I was preaching about the immorality of abortion rights.It's the school officials I'm disgusted with. They're exploiting these kids, using em up & tossing em out. All too often they haven't begun to acquire an education that will do em much good.

Apart from the exploitation, educational professionals should encourage law abiding, ethical behavior. Helping students slip around the rules & requirements is the anthithesis of what their mission s/b. That's disgusting.

I can of course criticize anything I damned well choose to...This btw is almost identical to what you once said to me. See? You were right.

IF you believe abortion is immoral by all means say so. That discussion shouldn't be restricted along gender lines...Can you say Phyllis Schlafly? Anita Bryant?

I understand heart felt opposition to abortion. I cannot abide the smug mother fuckers that glibly declare crisis preganancies to be merely inconvenient...Or that shrug off pregnancies resulting from rape or incest b/c they don't happen very often. That doesn't describe you regardless of your position on abortion.

And secondly, don't you find it just a tad bit absurd to be comparing this to sexual assault?I'm not comparing it to sexual assault. You noted they do many things that aren't official. A major problem with athletes is an ongoing assumption that they are, & s/b, outside the rules which is the downside to their penchant for doing a lot of 'unofficial' things..

What's the difference in this coach trying to force prayer on a group of students who don't like it, and you saying a coach shouldn't be allowed to do it if none of the kids object? There's not one. It's just a bunch of people trying to force their views on others.Bullshit. That argument comes directly from the religious right. IF I wanted to force my views on people I'd advocate extolling atheism & preaching the ridicule of religious superstitions & absurdities. I want them to obey the law, no more than that. I don't want any religion, including my own, to be advocated or endorsed, however subtly it's done. I don't want the oddball atheist, Muslim, Jew conflicted b/w declaring themselves part of a despised minority group or participating in rituals that are anathema to them.

I oughta prepare to be burned at the stake. The direction of the country says it's coming.

.
.

[Caped Crusader]

So you say.
Yeah, I forgot, you're the one with all the experience around football teams. :1crazy:

Do some pray for safety? Probably & my response in no way denied that. I've seen any # of coaches, players & fans babbling there will be victory with Jesus on their side.
Such intellectual dishonesty is unbecoming. Why pretend like you have been to enough football games to report on the activity of "any number" of anything?

Such prayers are obnoxious coming from the fans. They're obnoxious & illegal as a part of the team's activities.
The obnoxious part is nothing more than your opinion. The illegal part is unnecessarily hyperbolic. "Illegal" and "in violation of policy" are two different things.

I don't give a blue fuck for what the coach or the players want.
Obviously! Your intention is to control the personal behavior of others, just like any rightist nutter who looks to stop someone from having an abortion, jacking off to porn, or smoking a joint. You are exactly like them.

...wrong & illegal. Which, btw, does make it my fucking business.
Yes, just like marijuana use is some preacher's business. Thank you for making their argument for them.

State sponsored religion is wrong regardless of how popular it is.
Referring to this as "state sponsored religion" is quite a stretch.

That argument comes directly from the religious right.
And it sounds no different when it comes from a liberal parrot.

[JavaNoire]

.

Why pretend like you have been to enough football games to report on the activity of "any number" of anything?Who's pretending?

I've never attended a football game. Which is as many as I plan to attend.
I've willingly watched a riveting 10-20 min of football. This is more than I ever planned to watch. It's probably as much as I will watch.

Why do you think game attendance is necessary? I've often heard these stupid remarks spoken. I've also read them many times. (I read the sports page occasionally)

The illegal part is unnecessarily hyperbolic. "Illegal" and "in violation of policy" are two different things.It is an illegal violation of the church/state separation. Unfortunately, too many policies are outside the law.

Obviously! Your intention is to control the personal behavior of others, just like any rightist nutter who looks to stop someone from having an abortion, jacking off to porn, or smoking a joint.Balls. My intention (& that of the courts) is to rigorously maintain the church/state separation. Anyone can pray privately wherever they are. Public schools & public school events/activities are off limits for organized religious rituals such as prayer. No exceptions.

You are exactly like them.Hyperbolic. Obnoxious. Inaccurate(wildly).

Yes, just like marijuana use is some preacher's business.They're not at all the same arguments. Organized religious activity must stay out of public schools. It's the law. It's good law. A peek into Iran, Bosnia or the defunct USSR indicates exactly how good.

This country is rife with unofficial, undeclared religious coercion. The religious right will settle for nothing less than writing law, setting policy & running the country. Organized religion must be kept out of public schools. Those that need religious practices to be a part of school activities should enroll in religious schools.

Referring to this as "state sponsored religion" is quite a stretch.No, Jon it isn't. That's exactly why it shouldn't be permitted. The school is giving a tacit endorsement to a particular religious belief. It's putting dissenting students in the difficult position of publicly declaring their differing beliefs or participating in beliefs & rituals they disagree with.

Organized religion shouldn't play any part in the public school systems. Nobody attending, or employed, by public schools, should have to speak out in support or opposition of any religious belief.

And it sounds no different when it comes from a liberal parrot.& you're adorable when you act like an asshole.

.

[tabbinosity]

I won't argue the rightness or wrongness of religious beliefs, as I'm neither an atheist nor an agnostic. I'm also not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian.

I do, however, recall the times when school prayer was the norm and we started off each day in public school with a gem from a sacred text as foreign to me and the majority of my classmates as the Q'uran is to the average born-again Christian. I can also recall the relief I felt when we didn't have to do that anymore, and the rage I felt a few years later when I learned that we would be forced to recite the text of First Corinthians, chapter 13, at our sixth grade graduation.

The concept of separation of church and state has thus been dear to me since the primary grades. In the conservative religious school which I attended concurrently with public school for several years (every Sunday morning plus two afternoons a week, with weekly attendance at religious services an additional requirement), we were taught the importance of respecting others' religious beliefs and practices (and/or the right to the lack thereof).

We had no tradition of evangelizing among or witnessing to people who didn't share our beliefs -- we were taught that to do so was wrong for us, although we understood that some others' beliefs encouraged this sort of behavior. We also learned that our belief system was meant to govern our conduct with everyone, not just our co-religionists. We did have a tradition of prayer and ritual at home and within our own houses of worship, and we were taught that these were the proper places for prayer and ritual, not public/secular spaces.

Pray, if you do, at home and/or in the house of worship of your choice. Want god(s) in school? Send your children, if you have them, to the religious day school of your choice. No kids of your own? Then donate to the religious body of your choice to help ensure religious education for the children of those who believe as you do.

"In God we trust"? "One nation under God"? These phrases grate on me as much as the phrase "family values" does. Whose family? Whose god? I want that crap off my money, out of the Pledge, off my body, out of my head entirely.

[Buffalo]

The coach decided not to resign, but to stay and fight. In addition, the students who complained are being taunted by his supporters.

See this (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/211481.htm) and this. (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/211734.htm?nl=1)

If this doesn't make the point clear about religious fanatics insisting on allowing this "unforced" prayer in the locker room, nothing will.

Idiots.

[Caped Crusader]

In addition, the students who complained are being taunted by his supporters. And that is the fault of the coach.

If this doesn't make the point clear about religious fanatics insisting on allowing this "unforced" prayer in the locker room, nothing will. But there are schools in, say, Alabama, for example, where every student on the team would want to be led in prayer by their coach. To insist on refusing to approach the issue on a case-by-case basis is the behavior of an anti-religion fanatic.

Completely off-topic, but on a related subject, I woke up to the sound of my buzzer this morning, and my dog going nuts. Outside the front door were two chuch people, starting my Saturday by coming to tell me about Jesus.

I said, "Do I come to your house and wake you up on your day off to talk to you about imaginary men in the sky, or try to convince you not to believe in Jesus? Write down my street number, and consider this official notice that a return visit will be considered trespassing. Now get the fuck out of here."

They both stood there with their mouths open, and I slammed the door in their faces.

I'm having a sign engraved for the front door: Proselytizers will be fed to lions.

[Heartland]

I want one of those signs.

They haven't targeted my new street yet, but at my old house, they'd come around every single Sunday. You can't just not answer the door, because then they'll just keep coming back. You have to tell them in no uncertain words to stay away.

When I was a kid, we used to be able to say "I'm Catholic" and that would scare them off. But even that doesn't work now. They just try harder!

[JavaNoire]

.

And that is the fault of the coach.Yes. EXACTLY. The fucker should NOT have been leading prayers within public schools or as part of their activities. That he ignored the law, & pursued an ill conceived & illegal practice, is at the root of this debacle. He should have been issued a warning, & if he persisted, removed from his position. Which is a kindness on my part. You're not much for 2nd chances, Jon, but I'm not that harsh.

But there are schools in, say, Alabama, for example, where every student on the team would want to be led in prayer by their coach. To insist on refusing to approach the issue on a case-by-case basis is the behavior of an anti-religion fanatic.Wrong. Anti-religious fanatics would be screaming to give atheism or agnosticism equal time. There is no case by case basis for respecting the US Constitution & its Bill of Rights.

And with good reason. As reflected elsewhere in this thread, some people conform to popular doctrines b/c they fear the consequences if they refuse. Jon, you're brash, aggressive, obnoxious, combative, outspoken, opinionated & in some respects, fearless. YOU are able to speak out & fuck the consequences. Hell, you probably enjoyed it. I know I did.

That isn't, & shouldn't be, required of people, particularly K-12 students. Because people don't voice differing opinions doesn't mean they don't hold them. Given the potential for ostracism & harassment, people can appear to agree with the status quo while privately disagreeing.

It's wrong to assume that every team member wishes to be led in prayer. As an adult, I've heard many people confess that while in school they espoused racist beliefs or harassed (suspected) gays b/c they wanted to fit in & were afraid to oppose a strong majority. I've known gays that admit they were the most vociferously anti-gay b/c they were afraid of 'being discovered'. It isn't different for atheists (or Jews, Muslims, Buddhists) in many areas (Alabama probably being one) where they're largely unwelcome & despised.

And, at that...what if every student was comfortable with the word nigger? or was homophobic? Would it be permissible for the coach to then use & tolerate such words, advocate such beliefs?

.