Air Force Coach Deberry, A Christian racist?

[Buffalo]

Fisher DeBerry the head football coach at the Air Force Academy first got himself in hot water by putting up a banner urging the students to rally around Jesus Christ. Non-Christian cadets contend Christian cadets are shown marked favoritism on campus.

First question: is Coach DeBerry wrong in making his faith a part of his coaching routine?

Next Deberry made remarks yesterday stating the football program needs and wants more black kids because "they run better than white kids." A sports sociologist (didn't know there was such a thing) on CNN contended this remark is insensitive and racist.

Second question: is it?

Buff~

[kim]

yes and yes...

i want to know also why the govt. starts congressional sessions with a prayer...

[Heartland]

Let me know when the Inquisition starts, so I can get the hell out of Dodge.

[Caped Crusader]

Fisher DeBerry the head football coach at the Air Force Academy first got himself in hot water by putting up a banner urging the students to rally around Jesus Christ. Non-Christian cadets contend Christian cadets are shown marked favoritism on campus.

First question: is Coach DeBerry wrong in making his faith a part of his coaching routine? Yes.

Next Deberry made remarks yesterday stating the football program needs and wants more black kids because "they run better than white kids." A sports sociologist (didn't know there was such a thing) on CNN contended this remark is insensitive and racist.

Second question: is it? I guess that depends on the context in which the comment was made.

For one thing, it's true. Don't believe me? Name one white guy who starts at cornerback in the NFL. Off the top of my head, Patriots receiver/kick returner Tim Dwight is about the only white "speed" guy in the league, the exception to the rule. There are scientifically valid reasons for this, evidence based on thorough research, and it occurs to me that it would be racist to pretend it isn't true. If anyone is actually interested in the subject, I would recommend reading TABOO:
Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It, by Jon Entine.

[kim]

Jon - on the amazon dot com - review of that book - posted by - scientific american - they state:

..."Ironically, the greatest strength of Entine's book-its single-minded focus and clarity-likewise yields its greatest weakness. Because Taboo takes the form of an argument-a case to be proved, rather than an inquiry-it has a polemical flavor. Instead of sifting through fragmented, conflicting data on the rise of black athletes in sports, Entine seeks to prove his case by presuming his conclusion is true, then supporting it with selected evidence. Such a "proof" would be reasonable, were it not for his claim of reliance on the "scientific method." It is a disingenuous claim. The book does not even attempt to examine a robust data set, evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the information, or come to an evenhanded conclusion. Instead Entine chooses to spare his readers the ambiguities of robust data, which form the core of a scientific inquiry."...

[kim]

whoops - jon - sorry - that above review - comes from an article * published * - in scientific amercian - written by Loretta Dipietro - as well as - posted at - amazon...

[Heartland]

But wouldn't it be a case of "the proof is in the pudding?"

I don't think it's racist to note the characteristic differences in different races or ethnic groups. We're not all made the same, and that's fairly obvious, isn't it?

It's not accurate to say that all black people can run better than white people, but it has always appeared to me that certain black people are blessed with fantastically performing bodies. Look at the NBA ... the white guys look puny and sickly next the awesome bodies of their black peers. The guys from Kenya win our mini-marathon every single year. Their bodies are built completely different than those who excel at other sports.

I don't think it's racist to note the differences, if in so noting we are not degrading or using those differences to support racist creed. Aren't we supposed to be celebrating diversity?

[kim]

i agree - celebrate diversity...

however - if someone claims - scientific proof - of something - they need actually provide - scientific proof...

[kim]

p.s. and - yes - in case anyone might be wondering - i've had sex with black men - and - they were great...!

- as well as sex - with all sorts of - um - lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots - other men - too - they were all great...

:1rotfl2:

[Heartland]

I wasn't wondering that at all.

They were ALL great? You lucky girl.

I'm cursed with white woman's butt. :D

[kim]

- that - "in case anyone might be wondering" - part was a joke...! :1rotfl2:

[Caped Crusader]

whoops - jon - sorry - that above review - comes from an article * published * - in scientific amercian - written by Loretta Dipietro - as well as - posted at - amazon... Well, some people argue against the theory of evolution, too. :)

Do you, by chance, know anything about horseracing?

[kim]

some - but - not a lot...

anyway - in the old debate of - nature vs. nuture - until / if / it's ever settled - i'll side with nurture - i think that - we are all very similar - i think that - the whole issue of whether we are even different races at all - was - for the most part - concocted by a bunch of - mainly - racist germans - claiming to be scientists - in the middle of the 1800's - who had no modern idea of scientific method - at all...

[Buffalo]

I don't know what to say about the Black athlete's vs. White athlete's issue. I don't think there is real evidence to suggest any racial superiority. Possibly a cultural difference lends to any supportive evidence that one race shows better skills in a sport than another. Basketball vs. Hockey, for example.

Anyway, the Jesus thing with Fisher will be swept under the rug. Not because it was a good thing to say, but because it was the right place to say it. That's right wing neocon land in Colorado.

[Heartland]

Who would've thought they'd take over Colorado? Whatever happened to Rocky Mountain High? A little high would do them all good, if you ask me.

[Caped Crusader]

some - but - not a lot... Okay. Do you know why the horses they run in the races are the strongest and fastest?

anyway - in the old debate of - nature vs. nuture - until / if / it's ever settled - i'll side with nurture - i think that - we are all very similar - i think that - the whole issue of whether we are even different races at all - was - for the most part - concocted by a bunch of - mainly - racist germans - claiming to be scientists - in the middle of the 1800's - who had no modern idea of scientific method - at all... Well, I think it's blatantly obvious that there are genetic differences. For example, certain diseases are more likely to affect blacks than whites, and some are more likely to affect white people. 'Tis a medical fact.

But I think the problem here is that the bigger picture is being ignored.

I don't know what to say about the Black athlete's vs. White athlete's issue. I don't think there is real evidence to suggest any racial superiority. Well, you're wrong, but that's okay. We're here to learn. The real evidence can be seen by attending a game.

Looking at the NFL again, consider the overwhelming lack of black quarterbacks prior to the last couple of decades. Now you have black starters - successful starters, at that - in Philadelphia, Jacksonville, Minnesota, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Tennessee. Only one of those QB's has never been to the playoffs, and he's very young, surrounded by a young, rebuilding team. Of the remaining five, only one has never been as far as his conference championship game, and two have been to Super Bowls. This is unlike any other time in the history of the game.

Now tell me, have cultural differences resulted in more African-American men finding success at the QB position? Was the old racist attitude of, Blacks aren't smart enough to play QB, which existed among the most ignorant of fans, shared by coaches? Or is there another explanation?

I know the answers to these questions, but I would like to see someone else give it a shot.

Possibly a cultural difference lends to any supportive evidence that one race shows better skills in a sport than another. What sort of cultural differences make someone faster?

Basketball vs. Hockey, for example. Well, basketball was considered a Jewish sport in its infancy. How many Jewish kids do you see in the NBA? That pretty easily debunks your cultural differences theory, if you ask me. Hockey originated in places that had lower African-American populations at the time, before millions migrated from the South to the North. Open a national chain of rinks in urban neighborhoods across America, offer free skating lessons, and I guarantee the face of hockey will change drastically.

And I just have to ask... Anyone on this thread ever actually play competitive team sports?

[kim]

jon - i agree - that there are some genetic differences - in various peoples - what i think - though - is that - nurture - (vs. nature) - is - *more* - of a determining factor - when attempting to explain differences among people...

i have a question: i am of eurasian african european and middle eastern descent - what - "race" - am i...?

- i am not sure...

[kim]

whoops - forgot - also - american...

[Heartland]

*raises hand*

I played intramural basketball, does that count? I also played CYO kickball and volleyball in grade school. I've been a big sports fan since about 5th grade. That's when the Catholic schools began football and basketball, and I rarely missed a game on up through high school.

Yes, I believe the opinion that "blacks aren't smart enough to be quarterbacks" was pervasive in football fans, as well as in the coaching staffs. I think the attitude still prevails, but I'm glad to see it starting to change. The change needs to be made all the way down the line, though, to elementary school level, so the talent can be developed in more young men.

I also agree with your opinion on hockey. Considering the problems they have at the larger urban skating rinks (at least in my city), I think it would be fantastic to offer hockey to inner-city youth. Hmmm, I wonder why it's not being done?

The faces of tennis and golf, typically sports for well-to-do white people, are slowly changing too, thanks to the amazing talent of just a few players.

[Heartland]

Oh, and on the genetic thing: There are too many genetic differences to even list, even within the races. The runners from Kenya are just one tiny example of that. Whatever genetic trait causes it, their bodies are built for long-distance running.

[kim]

p.s. yes - jon - sorry - i also forgot to answer that question - you asked me - yes - i do know - or - i think that i know - why some horses - run faster - than other horses - and - yes - i do agree genes - have - *something* - to do with all of this - (i mean - among all beings - not just horses - of course)...

[Caped Crusader]

i have a question: i am of eurasian african european and middle eastern descent - what - "race" - am i...? You're a mutt, just like me.

I played intramural basketball, does that count? I also played CYO kickball and volleyball in grade school. I've been a big sports fan since about 5th grade. That's when the Catholic schools began football and basketball, and I rarely missed a game on up through high school. Yes, this all counts.

Yes, I believe the opinion that "blacks aren't smart enough to be quarterbacks" was pervasive in football fans, as well as in the coaching staffs. I think the attitude still prevails, but I'm glad to see it starting to change. Actually...

Lots of young black kids play QB at the high school and college levels, but only recently has the NFL started to reflect this. Why? Because traditionally, they have been very athletic, and when they go pro, they are converted to positions that typically required more speed than QB. Since the forward pass became so popular in the league, offenses have relied on the pocket passer, guys who just need to stand back, see the field, and throw the ball. In their minds, the coaches weren't wasting an arm, so much as they would be wasting the speed if they didn't have the players switch positions. Since pass rushing schemes have become so much more complicated, talent scouts, general managers, and coaches are starting to appreciate speedy QB's more and more, and the fans certainly love them.

Randall Cunningham pretty much broke the mold, and opened the door for this young generation of players.

So no, coaches knew better than to think black players weren't smart enough to play the position. It takes a lot of smarts to be a defensive back or offensive lineman, too. It was just a matter of getting what they thought would be the most out of the players' abilities. It happened more in college than in high school, and more in the NFL than in college.

p.s. yes - jon - sorry - i also forgot to answer that question - you asked me - yes - i do know - or - i think that i know - why some horses - run faster - than other horses - and - yes - i do agree genes - have - *something* - to do with all of this - (i mean - among all beings - not just horses - of course)... But they don't go out into the wild, or to a horse store, and say, "Oh, that horse has some good genes!"

Do you know how they get these horses?

And yes, I am getting to a point... eventually. :2headspin

[kim]

a mutt - okay - i like / love - that...! :1rotfl2:

- p.s. i just pm'd you... :1kiss1:

[kim]

p.p.s. and - yes - ! - hahahaha - i do know what they do - they splice and dice stuff...

[Caped Crusader]

p.p.s. and - yes - ! - hahahaha - i do know what they do - they splice and dice stuff... Well, they breed them. They choose which males will mate with which females. They do this because it is the most effective way to produce consistently strong, fast, and healthy thoroughbreds - champions, if you will. Workhorses are also bred to be the biggest, and the strongest. These animals are treated as property. They are not livestock, nor are they pets. They are bred specifically to live out an existence of servitude.

Now I'm not talking about splicing DNA. I'm just talking about selective mating. So you tell me, why do you think African-Americans dominate the most physically demanding sports in this country?

[Heartland]

I know, I know!

Because slaveholders bred them for strength and endurance!

(Except for those Kenyan guys, they're naturals.)

[kim]

hmmm well - sandy - you're confusing me...! :2headspin

jon - elaborate - some more - please / thanks...

[kim]

p.s. buff - i also want to know - (i think this is related - and also - important) - why we have - military chapliins...

[Heartland]

How am I confusing you, Dusa?

(I have a feeling our teacher is going to tell me that the answer is wrong, anyway.) :D

[kim]

well - i'm not really sure - and - oh yeah - um duh - i know they breed horses - i don't know where i got the idea - that they were splicing them up - anyway - if i knew why - i am confused - i might not be confused - maybe - ? - i don't know - anyway yeah - let's just wait for the teacher - to explain it - hahahaha...!

[Heartland]

Let's shoot spitballs onto the ceiling while he's gone! :1crazy:

[Caped Crusader]

I know, I know!

Because slaveholders bred them for strength and endurance! You get a star for the day! :1chirol_c

(Except for those Kenyan guys, they're naturals.) Well, actually...

I don't think that's genetic. I'm sure you're familiar with the expression, It's a marathon, not a sprint. If you lined up any of those guys next to Randy Moss for a 40-yard dash, I'd bet the farm on Moss. I believe that's more of a training thing, because... well, they live in Kenya. What the fuck else are they going to do?

What they do is comparable to what Lance Armstrong does, you know?

(I have a feeling our teacher is going to tell me that the answer is wrong, anyway.) :D No way, you were right on the money.

well - i'm not really sure - and - oh yeah - um duh - i know they breed horses - And at one time, "they" bred black people.

Had Hitler won WWII, by the year 2200, NFL Europe would be the NFL, and the NFL would be NFL Europel. You would have the Aryan Athletic Association, or some shit, breeding perfect specimens for Der Führer's games.

Are we not the supermen?
Aryan pure supermen
Ja we ist der supermen
Super-duper supermen.

[kim]

okay - but - what if - some people of a different group - had been bred - for strength - and - endurance...?

none of these people represent a whole race of people...

[kim]

p.s. also - confused again - jon - are you saying - that - african americans - are of - a different race - than - um - african africans - or - a - *different race* - than - some other group of people - of african descent...?

[Heartland]

Well, I think the Kenyan thing might be genetic, with some environment thrown in. I wasn't talking about a sprint, but the endurance needed to run a marathon and always come out in front. It takes a little sprinting, but mostly endurance. Yes, it takes training, but so does football, basketball, any sport. But there does seem to be a lot of natural ability there.

This is all just speculation and opinion on my part, since I haven't spent any time whatsoever studying Kenyan men's bodies or their environment. :rolleyes:

I'm in the middle of watching the movie, "Crash." I had no idea what it was all about. I'm going to start a new thread on it when I'm finished. (Taking a break to mop the floor.)

[Caped Crusader]

none of these people represent a whole race of people... No, of course not. The entire white race doesn't watch NASCAR, either, though.

p.s. also - confused again - jon - are you saying - that - african americans - are of - a different race - than - um - african africans - or - a - *different race* - than - some other group of people - of african descent...? Nope, not a different race. Just pointing out something people don't usually take into consideration when this subject is discussed.

I'm in the middle of watching the movie, "Crash." I had no idea what it was all about. I'm going to start a new thread on it when I'm finished. (Taking a break to mop the floor.) Crash was a great film, one of the best I've seen this year.

[JavaNoire]

.

I'm curious, very curious...Define race. How many races are there? What are the defining characteristics? How many racially homogeneous people are there? Where are they?

Apart from that...

Slaveowners bred enslaved blacks, true. What were they breeding for? Power & endurance are of obvious benefit in field workers. But why running speed? Runaways were an ongoing problem. Efficient field workers don't need to be sprinters or marathon runners. Stupidity? Wouldn't slaveholders have bred for genial dullards that wouldn't question & couldn't successfully plot? Wouldn't they have *bred* for docility to blunt rebellious urges?

Regardless, the antebellum practices of 100-300 yrs distant does little to account for African American dominance in basketball. This would be true even if we could assume slaveholders adhered to consistent & rigorous breeding standards that were targeted to athletic excellence.

I don't think we can assume that. Some bred for high #s to sell rather than personally work. Many 'breedings' were the result of rape. Others permitted slaves to marry whom they chose.

IF it was proven that breeding was overwhelmingly concerned with power, endurance, strength, agility & speed it wouldn't greatly affect the athletic prowess of 20th & 21st century black American athletes. Regression to the norm...When artificial selection (breeding) ceases, there's a rapid regression to the norm. Compare the American Mustang to its aristocratic Spanish ancestors.

.