Should New Orleans be rebuilt or abandoned? [Archive]

oddish

08-30-2005, 06:13 PM

I wish I could find written articles that said what the talked about but I'll have to go from memory so keep that in mind.

They had a guy on there who specialzed in the levy system and the type of soil things are built on and all that stuff. He said that one reason New Orleans was in such dire shape was because the river usually deposits silt and helps build up the area. The levy's have stopped that and as a result New Orleans is actually sinking and will continue to do so. His estimate for doing something about that problem was 14 billion dollars and that was before the hurricane.

I wonder how much, if any, of the historical value of New Orleans will remain after this is all said and done. If none of it does will the cost be worth it to rebuild?

Hellzapopin

08-30-2005, 06:13 PM

I feel very fortunate that I had a chance to spend a week there a few years back. I loved it, and everything about the people, sounds, smells and architecture. I even endured the cab ride back to the hotel (just a few blocks, really) in a cab that would have been up on blocks where I come from. It was all.....magic.

I would have a tough time thinking that this one-of-a-kind city was gone for good. I don't know what the answer is, for sure, but I hope someone can come up with a feasible engineering plan to allow rebuilding. I am just heartsick for everyone who lost everything there. Really, we all lost something precious. :(

oddish

08-30-2005, 06:17 PM

Here's another question.

If 14 billion were available would it be better to spend it just making it possible to rebuild not counting the tremendous cost of pumping and debris removal and all the water systems that need fixed etc or would it be better spent given to the people to start their lives back up. perhaps build a New New orleans somewhere else?

kim

08-30-2005, 06:22 PM

brian read about that too oddish - about the levees and the sinking - on some science site somewhere - i don't have the link...

your second question - maybe - and - yeah if so - somewhere else...

but maybe not...

- i'd really like to build a whole new world...

oddish

08-30-2005, 06:24 PM

Me too Dusa..take me with you will you :)

Pam

08-30-2005, 06:26 PM

Mark and I went to New Orleans on our honeymoon almost 25 years ago, and have gone back at least once a year since. My heart is hurting for the loss the people there are suffering, and breaking for my loss. I love that city. But I honestly don't see how they can rebuild. Maybe create a replica, but I'm not even sure of that. Until the efforts to stop the levee breeching failed, I had some hope but now the expect the remaining pumps to be overcome in the next few hours. They'll have to concentrate on getting the living out while they can.

I don't see how they can save the city, and the historical loss will be past comprehension.

kim

08-30-2005, 06:30 PM

for sure - oddish - and - let's have not so many buildings and roads - let's have lots of trees tho... :D

Heartland

08-30-2005, 06:32 PM

If they don't rebuild, where will a million homeless people go in this country?

newslady

08-30-2005, 06:37 PM

Sandy, maybe they will migrate north to the Midwest?

kim

08-30-2005, 06:39 PM

maybe they could rebuild farther north between baton rouge and lafayette...?

oddish

08-30-2005, 06:43 PM

Living in a treehouse with Dusa as my neighbor sounds pretty dang awsome :)

I think it would be cool if they could find somewhere else to "rebuild" the city. I don't know if land-wise that's even possible but if it was it would be cool for lots of reasons. Not the least of which is the community...not having to leave your neighbors and your friends but rather just relocate together.

Powerhouse

08-30-2005, 06:49 PM

Send them to Mexico - let's see how much that government likes people surging across the border and taking up jobs from their people.

socrfan2

08-30-2005, 07:22 PM

They had a guy on there who specialzed in the levy system and the type of soil things are built on and all that stuff. He said that one reason New Orleans was in such dire shape was because the river usually deposits silt and helps build up the area. The levy's have stopped that and as a result New Orleans is actually sinking and will continue to do so. His estimate for doing something about that problem was 14 billion dollars and that was before the hurricane.

Yes, what you read is correct. It's the armoring of the entire river that has caused NO (and the entire delta) to sink -- dirt that used to replenish the soil during the floods now is put on a conveyor belt and shot out to the continental shelf.

They're also trying artificially to keep the Mississippi in the same riverbed because they don't want to throw away all the infrastructure (docks, refineries, etc.) they've built along the river -- and the Mississippi wants to change course. The Army Corps of Engineers is spending billions on that -- and sooner or later they'll lose that one, too. If it happens catastrophically (rather than gradually), it could be the greatest natural disaster in US history.

Old River Control (http://users.stlcc.edu/jangert/oldriver/oldriver.html)

They can decide any number of times that they're going to "rebuild" New Orleans and it won't make any difference in the ultimate outcome. The site is doomed. If they rebuild, that just means that it will be even further below sea level and even more vulnerable, and the costs and casualties will be even greater when the next "big one" hits in another decade or so.

Americans have this tendency to think brave statements can counteract the laws of physics: "We're going to keep the Shuttle flying." "We're going to stay in Iraq until we win." "We're going to protect the coastlines from erosion." "We're going to keep the Mississippi River in its banks." Well, we can spend tens of billions or hundreds of billions and the outcome will be the same.

kailin

08-30-2005, 07:40 PM

Wow, socrfan -- thanks for that link. Very concise explanation!

:1clap:

oddish

08-30-2005, 07:44 PM

Americans have this tendency to think brave statements can counteract the laws of physics Yes they do.

sadie999

08-30-2005, 08:00 PM

This is one of those questions that needs an answer that balances common sense with heart. Never easy.

My house was built in the 1920s. If a snow storm flattened it this winter and there was a chance it could happen again in my lifetime, would I be foolish to rebuild? Maybe. But if I loved my home and rebuilt anyway, would I care that I was being foolish? Maybe not. Being foolish isn't always a bad thing.

Peace.

Rawbunzel

08-30-2005, 08:36 PM

I hope they rebuild it. I think it could be done and done well. They'll need a much better pumping system and better built levys. Maybe they could fill some areas...make at least some safe places for people to go.

Fourty years ago I would have been sure we could do it. Americans had better attitudes back then about getting things done. Now too many want someone else [the government] to do it for them..so we'll see. It is going to take a lot of people with a lot of will to get it done.

I hope they can do it, I really do.This will be a good test of the American spirit.

Therp

08-30-2005, 08:38 PM

I think that there will be people living there whether it gets rebuilt or not. Some of those million homeless will go back into town and find whatever shelter there is there to live in.

But as to whether or not tax dollars should be spent on rebuilding, it will, as usual, be a political and not a practical decision. I'd bet on at least some rebuilding effort happening.

mango man

08-30-2005, 08:42 PM

it will be rebuilt and halliburton will make billions on govt contracts.

rebuilding it is insane, it will be destroyed by storms again , and again and again.

wasabanker

08-30-2005, 09:15 PM

Many parts of the New Orleans area are built on "reclaimed" land. Heck, I lived on what was once a swamp where they raised frogs for gourmet restaurants. The land that was reclaimed was backfilled with who knows what as it periodically subsides in no logical manner.

Looks to me like there will be a lot of rubble to use for such reclamation. Where are they going to put the remains of Gulfport? Buras? Venice? Using the bones of these vanished cities to elevate the rebuilding of New Orleans might not be such a bad plan.

I have some other tangental questions rolling around in my head.

The city of New Orleans also has a very strong historic preservaton faction. Would they even tolerate replica buildings to modern code?

Would a more green city better absorb some of the minimal flooding that the levee system protects a more paved city from? Could the levee system be lessened perhaps?

Technically the city of New Orleans encompassses the entire Parish (County). But having the Historic French Quarter, Garden District and Central Business District comprise the city core with the residents living in the remoter fringes like New Orleans East may allow the tourist and commercial aspects to return. I'm thinking something like Williamsburg without a million population. After all the city was not a megapolis when it was built and a return to its truer scale may be beneficial. Ironically, Williamsburg doesn't allow cars and maybe New Orleans shouldn't allow residents withOUT cars to evacuate with.

socrfan2

08-30-2005, 11:05 PM

My house was built in the 1920s. If a snow storm flattened it this winter and there was a chance it could happen again in my lifetime, would I be foolish to rebuild?

Different question from people who build in a city that's below sea level and guaranteed to have regular catastrophic floods. Or people who build right on the duneline on the Outer Banks, where they know erosion and hurricanes will pound it to bits. Or people who build in areas that are known to be prone to landslides or mudslides or avalanches.

We're seeing this every year in the LA suburbs -- people who built in areas that anyone with elementary knowledge of soil would know is prone to landslides or wildfires. There's a national epidemic of people building in areas they know (or should know) are virtually certain to be destroyed in their lifetimes. And many of them expect the taxpayers to pay to get them out of harm's way, protect their property, and rebuild -- repeatedly, if necessary.

I don't blame people who live in NO for not knowing this was going to happen. NO's vulnerability came about little by little over the past century. But anyone who rebuilds there now should be on their own. If necessary, the government should buy them out, as they did with Times Beach (dioxin contamination), Love Canal (buried toxic waste) and other known hazardous areas.

krisinluck

08-31-2005, 04:11 AM

mango man

08-31-2005, 02:35 PM

This is an impossible question, really.

People will do what they want to do - some out of ignorance, some out of love for the place they call home, and some for the historical significance of the area. The government will fund the least intelligent path.

I suspect they will attempt rebuilding, but it will never be the same place it was. The loss of history - not just in New Orleans but Biloxi and the other destroyed cities...it's beyond comprehension for those of us who never got to see it first hand.

peaple will do that they want to do ,if they can get funding . if federal flood insurance refused to write policys anywhere that wasnt at least 12' above sea level then there would be no mgts and the only rebuilding would be from those who could pay 100% and where willing to assume all the risks of inisured property

as it is if they allow rebuilding we are all funding the risk since it wouldnt be possible without federal flood insurance.

Jay98

08-31-2005, 02:47 PM

Since rebuilding will take years, many folks will have moved on with their lives and whatever work they can find.

I wish i had visited NO years ago, but kept putting it off. Would have loved to gone during Mardi Gras - listened to some Jazz & Blue, and eaten myself sick....sigh

zeldas

08-31-2005, 02:58 PM

After Hurricane Andrew, many chose not to rebuild. Many took the insurance and moved on. I do not think that many will choose to stay. Not after this one.
If it were me, I would move on to a safer place to raise my family.

nobs

08-31-2005, 06:11 PM

abandon

skylarraye

08-31-2005, 06:17 PM

Rebuilt.

The study abroad program in which I participated this past summer was through the University of New Orleans. The majority of my new friends livethere. Out of 25 people, I've heard from three.

microbes

08-31-2005, 06:30 PM

IF, and it's a big if, it's rebuilt it shouldn't be below the water level this time.

hilady

09-01-2005, 02:53 PM

people who build in a city that's below sea level and guaranteed to have regular catastrophic floods. Or people who build right on the duneline on the Outer Banks, where they know erosion and hurricanes will pound it to bits. Or people who build in areas that are known to be prone to landslides or mudslides or avalanches.

Rebuild...This catastophy has been waiting to happen! The Corp of Engineers must engineer New Orleans to withstand hurricanes. It can be done with funds they DID not spend to secure the city. After all the Japanese built an airport in the sea with an expansion bridge out to it... amazing!

My mother and sister are safe, finally, heard a report by the grapevine. Mother has no damage to her home but trees and debris everywhere. Don't know details about my sister yet. Will be going down asap to try to get her
a generator. It would be wonderful to talk to my Mother.

mango man

09-01-2005, 09:03 PM

IF, and it's a big if, it's rebuilt it shouldn't be below the water level this time.

I saw that the downtown and french quarter are on high ground and above sea level but as the city expanded the newer areas where built below sea level.

so maybe leave the historic higher ground and abandon the rest .

agogoboots

09-02-2005, 01:18 AM

As much as I loved NO, it really doesn't make economic sense. It's destined to happen again. But they will. And now that 75,000 of their poor, homeless, etc. have just become residents of Texas, everybody else will surely want to go home.

I regret two things about how the media is handling this.
1. They are only focusing on downtown NO while the local news is showing hospitals in MS and LA where they have no water for patients to take medication and have been manually intabating patients for days because they have no fuel for generators to operate venelators, other people in same condition, etc., etc. These people are irrate that all the focus (and thus rescue) is focused on the superdome.
2. You are only seeing the worst of NO, the inner city Harlem if you will. A getto is not what NO is. Everybody else left. Hate that image being the only one of this great city America sees.

Powerhouse

09-02-2005, 10:37 AM

Definetly abandon. I get sick of this crap... watching people die because they live in a place that is specifically geographically unsafe to live in, while at the same time hearing the politicians shout about how much of our tax dollars they will put into rebuilding it. It has become a stupid oath made in passion rather than in logic and we will pay for it over and over again in lives and dollars until the end of time or until sanity prevails in politics. Guess which will come first.? :irollers2

bluekazoo

09-02-2005, 10:52 AM

Rebuild.

If you start touting abandonment, then you'd better look closely at other places that are lying in wait for a disaster of their own ... Florida coastline? Hey, they get hurricanes, better empty it out ... California? Get off the damned faultlines and move to Kansas, where you'll be safe! Oh, no, wait .. Kansas? Can't live there, there are tornadoes that can level a town in a few minutes ...

Every place has it's disaster waiting to happen ... I've lived in areas frequented by tornadoes and bitter, killing cold winters ... I lived in Southern California during five earthquakes ... every place has the potential to be a disaster area; by flood, fire, earthquake, tornado, blizzard, or disease.

Talking specifically about New Orleans, not only is that city and the surrounding area the home for many people, as the terminus of the Mississippi River, it is absolutely vital to the economy of this nation ... goods and services move in and out of that port continually (and for the most part silently to the rest of us) but we WILL notice a difference ... in prices and even availability in some cases, during the reconstruction process.

Ultimately, because the area will be closed for so long for cleanup, at this time it's hard to know how many people will return when it's deemed safe to go back - 4 months? that's a long time to 'wait' to go home - many will have started over elsewhere, and may choose to continue on somewhere else ... but that choice will belong to them. If people return, they will rebuild. And they should have that right. Because it is their home.

packyrat

09-02-2005, 11:35 AM

After Hurricane Andrew, many chose not to rebuild. Many took the insurance and moved on. I do not think that many will choose to stay. Not after this one.

It wasn't just after Andrew....when I got the quote for the UHaul....the manager said that they had been sending at least one truck each day since Dennis hit on a one-way rental back to the mid-west & north. A lot of people had already left the panhandle after Ivan....and some more of us are just tying up loose ends and will be gone before season is over this year.

As far as the Big Easy.....the historical & tourist value alone almost guarentees that it will be rebuilt to a certain extent....whether it will ever see the revival of its hey day is another story.

To me....the smartest thing would be to turn it into another Williamsburg style city....and spend the money to secure it best as possible.

OTOH.....it is also difficult to forget that NO was on the least damaging side of the storm too! If ole Katrina had bobbled to the left instead of to the right....this discussion wouldn't even be happening because there wouldn't *BE* anything left to rebuild.....and that CAN happen at any time another storm hits the Gulf. :1raygun1:

Powerhouse

09-02-2005, 12:37 PM

Rebuild.

If you start touting abandonment, then you'd better look closely at other places that are lying in wait for a disaster of their own ... Florida coastline? Hey, they get hurricanes, better empty it out ... California? Get off the damned faultlines and move to Kansas, where you'll be safe! Oh, no, wait .. Kansas? Can't live there, there are tornadoes that can level a town in a few minutes ...

That was kind of my point, blue. What if the California coast dropped into the ocean? What, would you actually expect them to rebuild it??? Maybe bring in loads of sand form Saudia Arabia or something?

No. Of course not. That would be rediculous, no matter how much history it had.

The same for New Orleans. The ocean came back to claim what rightfully - by geography - belongs to it. And it will again.

It is also rediculous to compare Kansas to either to those two. Sure it is a part of Tornado Alley, and it is a facet of life there, but that is a more a matter of scale and chance when compared to the disaster of N.O. or the one awaiting California. No place could be considered 100 percent safe, but Kansas is probably 100 percent safer than N.O. or California.

And know this - they will NOT take the time necessary to fix N.O. properly, they don't have that luxury. They will quick fix it and pray for the best, but it will not be near enough.

Clakker

09-02-2005, 02:21 PM

Build a new New Orleans that is above sea level. It makes no sense other than the emotional heart wrenching, historical aspect in rebuilding the old. A community that is below sea level doesn't seem reasonable, especially with this just being the beginning of the hurricane season. How much more can that city take?

Of course I live on the San Andreas fault line. If we lost our home, I'd move to Arizona - maybe become a neighbor to Ross. :1th_drum:

gigilee

09-02-2005, 03:03 PM

I'd like to see the heart of the old city saved for tourism and historical reasons, with business and residential areas rebuilt in outlying areas above sea level. Business and industry that are dependant on Gulf access and must be located at or below sea level should be subject to building codes to withstand Cat 5 storms.

However, I expect NO will be rebuilt right where it currently sits, and someday, history will repeat itself. Although the potential for loss of human life should be the number one reason to move the city to high ground, I suspect it will prove less costly in terms of dollars to rebuild in the current location.

Gina

tekobari

09-02-2005, 07:40 PM

Just want to point out, for anyone who doesn't understand that Mike is joking, California can't slip into the ocean or anything remotely like that, even if every single fault in the state experienced a 9 or higher earthquake.

One thing about hurricanes is that no one has to die because they are plotted in advance. Sure, they can change course. But if plans were in place to evacuate poor humans within a wide range of landfall possibility, there would be few deaths. Property destruction can be rebuilt. Human destruction cannot. My New Orleans wing of the family all got out--they're rich. It's the people in the Superdome who have no access to second homes and cars, savings to live on until the jobs come back, etc. Plans have to be made for mass evacuation in cases like that.

The houses in the mudslides in CA are rich people's houses. They have a choice of where to build and buy, and they choose there. That's entirely different from the poor of New Orleans who couldn't get out.

New Orleans was my second favorite city in the country. We almost moved there ten years ago, and planned to retire there or maybe North Carolina. Looks like it won't be New Orleans now. Will my relatives go back? They own houses not too far from the French Quarter, so there's probably not much damage. One section left several years ago and vowed not to return. My cousin Bill, who was born in a shelter during Camille, moved to Austin. The others stayed, and seem to want to stay. We'll see. This one may have been the final nail in the coffin for them.

Powerhouse

09-02-2005, 07:53 PM

Cartman

09-02-2005, 08:53 PM

Whne the French first starting building in New Orleans, the local Indians told them not to - that it flooded.

The French didn't listen, of course, since they had already been in the area for 25 years - they already knew everything.

I am for not rebuilding.

In fact, I'm for turning it into a Nuclear test site (after all law-abiding citizens are rescued, of course). We can study the looter's bones later and learn a lot.

chynna

09-02-2005, 10:11 PM

Rebuild, even if only the historical district.

packyrat

09-03-2005, 04:58 AM

I'll tell you what - first opportunity I get I am moving to Hooker County, Nebraska. I'll buy a freaking homestead out in the middle of nowhere and not have internet access and only get 2 channels on the TV and be the happiest MF on the planet!

I think you just described where I am moving in upstate New York in 2-1/2 weeks, Mikey....except for getting dial up service to stay hooked up to the boards & eBay, and satellite for TV of course!

I have already started calling it "Hooterville" and am looking for an old truck so I can become Mr. Haney! :1rotfl2:

Funny thing is.....there *IS* something very appealing about livin' in the sticks too. ;)

Powerhouse

09-03-2005, 06:40 AM

I think you just described where I am moving in upstate New York in 2-1/2 weeks, Mikey....except for getting dial up service to stay hooked up to the boards & eBay, and satellite for TV of course!

I have already started calling it "Hooterville" and am looking for an old truck so I can become Mr. Haney! :1rotfl2:

Funny thing is.....there *IS* something very appealing about livin' in the sticks too. ;)

Naw, going back to dial-up after having broadband would piss me off way too much - so it is best if I just drop off the net completely (unless I get some sort of high speed satellite hook up).
I'm tired of tracking hurricanes - particurally these past two years, I'm tired of the neighboorhood soap opearas, and I want to see the starts at night again.
Country life definetly has it's appeal - but don't expect me to start listening to Tim McGraw or Travis Tritt (yes, I even had to google to get two country singer names). :1rotfl2: