Family of dead Dumbass want money.

[Powerhouse]

Well the headline actually reads: "Family of man killed by U.S. air marshals in Miami want answers" , but it should truthfully read as I've posted it. They already have their answers, they just don't like the truth and are looking to place the blame on someone else. Maggots.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FL_AIRPLANE_SHOOTING_COSTA_RICA_FLOL-?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

:1raygun1: :1raygun1: :1raygun1:

[mango man]

maybe charges shold be brought aginst the wife for not having him commited when he refused to take his meds

[bluekazoo]

Two sides to every story ... here's another account, with quotes from fellow passengers - from this website (though I've read similar accounts across the internet): link (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=165377676&p=y6537838z)

US officials defend shooting of mentally ill air passenger
09/12/2005 - 11:56:08

By all accounts, Rigoberto Alpizar was frantic as he darted off a plane at Miami International Airport, bumping past passengers and yelling that he needed to get off the aircraft.

However, passengers say they never heard him say anything about a bomb. Federal officials say he shouted that he had a bomb in his bag, and ignored instructions to get down. When he reached for the bag, the marshals opened fire, killing him.

No bomb was found after Wednesday’s shooting. Witnesses said his wife frantically shouted amid the chaos that he was bipolar (manic depressive), and hadn’t taken his medication.

The White House and others yesterday defended the marshals’ actions, saying they appeared to have acted properly when they shot to kill the 44-year-old Costa Rican immigrant.

“The bottom line is, we’re trained to shoot to stop the threat,” said John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association and a deputy with the US Marshals Service in Miami.

“Hollywood has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can’t,” Amat said. “These guys were in a very tense situation. In their minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane.”

Both air marshals were hired in 2002 from other federal law enforcement agencies and are now on administrative leave, said Homeland Security spokesman Brian Doyle.

Miami-Dade police were investigating and the medical examiner’s office was performing a post-mortem.

“He was belligerent. He threatened that he had a bomb in his backpack,” Doyle said. “The officers clearly identified themselves and yelled at him to ’get down, get down.’ Instead, he made a move toward the backpack.”

It wasn’t clear where in Alpizar’s frantic dash officials say the marshals heard the threat. At least two passengers on the Orlando-bound flight said they didn’t hear Alpizar mention a bomb.

“I absolutely never heard the word ’bomb’ at all,” said John McAlhany, who was returning from a Key West fishing trip. “I never heard the word ’bomb’ when we got off the plane. I never heard the word ’bomb’ when we were sequestered. The first time I heard the word ’bomb’ was when I was interviewed by the FBI.”

Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: “I did not hear him say that he had a bomb.”

Alpizar appeared agitated before boarding the plane and was singing Go Down Moses as his wife tried to calm him, said passenger Alan Tirpak.

“The wife was telling him, ’Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,”’ Tirpak said. “I thought maybe he’s afraid of flying.”

McAlhany recounted how, once aboard, Alpizar told his wife, “I’ve got to get off the plane,” then bumped passengers and flight attendants on his way down the aisle.

“When he got to the first-class cabin, the marshals jumped up,” McAlhany said. “After that, it was on the jetway. Only those two air marshals and God know what happened.”

Alpizar’s wife, Anne Buechner, had tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication, witnesses said.

The National Alliance on Mental Illness called on the Air Marshal Service and other law enforcement agencies to train officers in responding to people with severe mental illness.

But whether Alpizar was mentally ill didn’t matter while marshals were trying to determine if the threat was real, others said.

“The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag – they had to react,” Amat said.

Mental illness can make a situation more volatile, said Jim Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police.

“What if the officer had said, ’I think this guy is full of it, I don’t think he has anything,’ and that plane had been blown to smithereens,” Pasco said. “What would the second guessers be saying then?”

The couple had been returning to their central Florida home from a missionary trip to Ecuador, where he was handing out glasses to the poor.

Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership, a non-profit focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organisation said in a statement.

/end quoted story

Now, because of the wide distance between the FBI and the Marshall's versions and the passengers versions, I sincerely hope an investigation is launched. If those Marshalls are found to have acted in error, I would expect compensation for the family, same as any other wrongful death.

Fact is, the man had no bomb. Fact is, he was trying to exit the airplane. Fact is, they killed him. The rest of the facts need to come out before we truly know anything much beyond this ...

Personally, I am wary of the concept of 'hired guns', which is what many of those 'thousands of newly hired air Marshalls' really are ... I also find it interesting that the Homeland Security spokesperson is talking freely about this, as though he were there ... it's all hearsay at this point, until a proper investigation, for the record, is performed. Government spin, in my opinion ... "All Hail Homeland Security" ...


Mango, I'm not sure where you live, but I don't know of a state in this country that allows a spouse to commit another spouse to an institution without long and difficult legal proceedings; 'he won't take his meds' wouldn't even get a nod under current law .. but I'm guessing that you were just joking around ...

[hellcat]

Mango, I'm not sure where you live, but I don't know of a state in this country that allows a spouse to commit another spouse to an institution without long and difficult legal proceedings; 'he won't take his meds' wouldn't even get a nod under current law .. but I'm guessing that you were just joking around ...

Florida, Baker Act (the "Florida Mental Health Act," and most states have a similar statute). It is an emergency proceeding which allows for a (up to) 3-day involuntary commitment (generally to a mental health facility) of a person acting erratically, and believed to potentially pose a danger to him/herself or others. It should be noted that Florida's Baker Act also covers voluntary commitment and assessment, as well, and a host of other mental health issues.

It is, quite literally, a nearly instant procedure...one which does not require "long and difficult legal proceedings," and is intended to provide a process whereby lives can be saved (by providing a "safe haven" (albeit involuntary) confinement and evaluation for up to 3 days, whereupon the person is either released from confinement or (via a hearing) found to be incapacitated and in need of further confinement and treatment).

The most "public" use of the Baker Act's involuntary shortterm commitment provisions is its exercise by law enforcement officers who respond to attempted suicide scenes (jumpers, ODs, etc.). However, the most frequent use of the Baker Act's emergency and involuntary shortterm commitment provisions is its exercise due to initiation by a family member.

Beth

[mango man]

no I wasnt joking I think part of being a "loving spouse " is protecting the other.

he was ill , she knew it , he was off his meds , she knew it . from what I can see she did nothing but scream out at the last min that he was ill and off his meds

he is dead becouse she failed to act. had she informed the airline that he was bipolor and off his meds do you think they would have allowed him to fly ?

what if she said to him take the meds or I report you and you dont fly ?


I think its a Damm shame that it had to happen but from what I can see bomb or not the air marshalls did what they had to .

[bluekazoo]

Sounds like another good reason to avoid Florida. ;)

Nope, it's not that way everywhere, but I'll let you look up the statutes ... could tell you stories about individual cases, but won't do it here ... no point anyway, really ...

[bluekazoo]

he is dead becouse she failed to act

That's the biggest bunch of bs I've read here yet today ...

His wife is to blame?

Oy.

[hellcat]

Sounds like another good reason to avoid Florida. ;)

Nope, it's not that way everywhere, but I'll let you look up the statutes ... could tell you stories about individual cases, but won't do it here ... no point anyway, really ...

Actually, because I hadn't bothered to count the states with emergency involuntary commitment statutes when I pulled that info up on the Lexis database, I used the imprecise "most states" language. I was wrong. All 50 states, plus the District of Columbia, have statutes which provide for shortterm emergency involuntary commitment in mental health facilities when a person presents a danger to him/herself and/or others. The threshold and circumstances for making that determination naturally varies by state (the pesky 10th amendment in action).

There will always be "stories about individual cases" in which the law did not work as it might have, or should have (or didn't work in a way that satisfied the person with the story to tell). Obviously, the fact that a jurisdiction (nation, state, county, city, etc.) has a statute/law on its books regarding an issue does not imply that something (like murder, theft, running red lights, etc.) will/will not happen.

Beth

[Heartland]

In the article I read, the wife already took the blame and said it was her fault for forcing him to get on the plane when he didn't want to.

Frankly, I do place some of the blame on her, because anyone with experience with a severely bipolar person who's off their meds knows what the panic can be like, and how it could have disrupted that flight. She should have made sure he was taking his meds before subjecting him to the stress of flying in an enclosed, crowded airplane.

I'd like to know if he was out of his meds because of the trip or if he intentionally did not take them. His wife knew he hadn't been taking them, so she was aware of what could happen with his behavior.

I also read that he was reaching into his shirt, not his backpack, but I don't know if there were any witnesses at that point out in the jetway.

I hope there's an investigation as well, though, because I don't trust our government to tell us the truth any longer, and because so many passengers said they never heard the word "bomb" at all. I suspect the government and the airlines will close ranks on this due to liability and publicity, and we'll be left with witnesses who may or may not be credible.

[mango man]

I dislike the patriot act iimmensley . my first reaction was trigger happy . rambo air marshals but as I read and think about it I dont think they had much choice given the circomstances as I perceive them based on what I have read to date .

[TurtleTrax]

Sounds like another good reason to avoid Florida. ;)
You know I love ya, Blue One, (and I did see the winking smiley) but I have to say...

HARUMPH!

Then, I have to say I'm breaking my self-imposed rule of not posting in political/religious threads, because this one hits VERY close to home.

It's hard for me to believe that most states don't have something comparable to the Baker Act, but I've never researched it, so I can't say with any degree of certainty whether they do or don't. I have had very personal experience with the Baker Act, having had to make use of it twice this year, and I'm extremely grateful that we DO have it in the State of Florida.

Sandy, I think we read the same article. Knowing the heightened state of alert that is maintained by the federal government on airlines in this day and age , if the wife DID in any way encourage her husband to board that plane (knowing the condition he was in and that he had been off his meds), then I think she does have to accept at least part of the blame for the situation which occurred.

[FLvamp]

It's not my place to hand out blame here.

I'm only gonna say (as a person who is recovering from panic attacks) there's no damn way that man should've been on a plane off his meds. Once you're on those meds, they do mucho-freaky thangs if you stop them.

I'm confident had the airline any idea of the situation, they would have prevented him from flying. Airlines don't let you fly these days if you even have an aroma of alcohol! {Source: that goofy show on A&E about Airports and flying, cain't member da name}

I would not even consider flying at this point. Maybe some day, but I don't see it happening. Just writing this gives me a fluttery tummy. :1barf1:

[Heartland]

They can do 72-hour holds here for mental evaluation. It doesn't have to be a relative ... a hospital or doctor can request it, have a hearing AT the hospital, and get a 72-hour guardianship over the person. They did it to my dad at the V.A. when his dementia started and he had a psychotic break.

[agentorange]

I have seen nothing but bad from people who supposedly "suffer" from bipolar disorder. I'm not convinced it is a disease, or that psychiatry can even treat it. Quite possibly it's just a character flaw, in which case these people are just rotten eggs. People who are diagnosed as being bipolar, well it's not the same as depression, I mean just read where these people post and the things they say--they will describe how nuts they really are. Like here, I found this guy describe his "condition":

http://theicarusproject.net/community/forums/archives/viewtopic.php?id=3504



yes. i have it. i dented walls, i took my tennis racket and put dents into my car, i hit an elevator door that was closing three times in rapid succession to keep it open with such force that the third time around i pulled a nail off, completely. i don't want to get into that because i thought the elevator was made out of replicators and quite alive and it took my nail off on purpose, kinda like 3rd time you're out law of robotix, it took my first two blows with dignity and it retaliated big time on the third... to kill me i couldn't figure out how i got my finger caught in between the sliding doors when i hit it in order to have that nail completely pulled out. mwah, at least the nail grew back ok in due time.

i hit the car in front of me three times in a row (not super hard, but still), my wife was driving it. i did it to prove some kind of obscure point to her that never got across, but of course, i'd rather not get into further details with that coz it gets even weirder than the elevator story. i yelled at random people on the street for obscure reasons, like i thought they had evyl eyes. one time i was about to punch this guy for having a t-shirt that had a bunch of dead bodies on the bottom of an aquarium saying "got air?" i didn't like the t-shirt's attitude i guess. another t-shirt i was going to punch in the nose said "i got no underwear" and i didn't find it appropriate in the restaurant i was dining at.

road rage like you could not believe. i often wonder how many times i got killed and how many i've killed on the freeway:z

you call it explosive anger, i call it polymorphic rage. same shit. freaks the hell out of everybody around. i worked hard at it and it gradually decreased with my manic episodes to the point where my 5th and 6th didn't have any of it anymore. i never laid a hand on my wife or anything like that, but i did throw shit around her and it scared the living hell out of her. i got rid of the road rage completely after my 3rd manic episode as well. before that, i'd pull donuts in the middle of intersections sometimes. had my wife in the car with me at times too when i'd pull shit like that. again, freaked her to death.

i thought i had it all figured out, i'm over all that, it's all smooth sailing, to find out my wife had made up her mind to leave me prolly by the time i had my 2nd manic episode, she just took some time to work out the details and got around to do it only after my 6th trip (by which time, i had absolutely zero rage associated with it). a bit too late to patch things up, i guess.

it's goddam hard work to tame the beast within. i will also tell you what did it to me. goddam lithium. what lithium did to me is put me into some sort of i don't give a shit mode. then the mania would float my rage up and i couldn't even recognize it, under lithium's narcotic like effects on me, i found it all quite funny. once i got off lithium, i had no problem recognizing when i get out of line and just cut it out.



Offline



He wanted to beat the crap out of people because he didn't approve of their t-shirts, he screamed obsceneties at them because he thought they had evil eyes, and yet he has absolutely no remourse. I have found very few admitted bipolars show any remourse for their behavior, and they DO know right from wrong. They just run around this earth, hurting the people that love them, destroying lives, beating the crap out of strangers, and on and on and on... So this dude on the airplane, whatever it was people claim caused his behavior, his behavior earned him a just and swift sentence. Perhaps the best treatment he could have ever asked for. His wife is probably throwing a party (as well as launching a lawsuit, and why not).

[Heartland]

Base, there's no way I can agree with you on that! If it was just bad behavior, then why would my dad start becoming psychotic again if he misses his meds for just two days? And he hates taking the medicine, but he knows he has to. I will agree that people can be misdiagnosed sometimes, though.

Also, I'm unsure about the guy you quoted. When my dad finally came out of his delusional mania, he remembered very little of the entire two-month-long episode. He only vaguely remembered a few things, like he thought the CIA and FBI were hiding in his yard waiting to kill him, but he didn't remember most of it. Maybe some of that could be blamed on his advanced age, but not all of it. He didn't even remember who had visited him at the hospital, or that he thought they were injecting drugs into his bananas and other food, or that the FBI had followed him and was camped outside his hospital room. His memory is not that bad when he's not delusional, nor does he have explosive anger (and he didn't have it in the delusional state, either -- he was scared out of his wits.)

It was just a very long, very scary manic delusional state, and it was the first time anything like that had ever happened to him.

I'm sure that there are different intensities to those episodes with different people. In my experience, many of them do seem to have an increased need for attention and that could be why they choose to publicly post such personal descriptions of their problems. If someone had lung cancer or a brain tumor or any other serious illness, they might post that they have that illness, but when they start posting page-long descriptions, with every gory surgery detail, and describing every detail of the people they came into contact with during their hospital stay ... they're going to lose their audience due to boredom.

Bipolars and others who want attention for their illnesses need to realize that there are a LOT of sick people in this world, both mentally and physically. Their own illness is nothing special and most people, unless they share that exact same illness, don't want to hear every last excruciating detail about it. Some things were just meant to be private.

[agentorange]

Sandy, I'm not suggesting that dementia doesn't exist, or even paranoia. My problem is with all the various disorders the psychological community has "cooked up", and it seems nearly every American thinks they have one of these disorders, and nearly every American is drugged or medicated to treat one of them. I'm not going Cruise, or anything, in fact if there is a case to be made for mental illness existing it's Tom. The argument that "meds made me better" is true to the extent that they are dangerous, mind-altering drugs, and many of them are sedatives or taken in combination with a sedative. So it's no wonder then that some violent or extremely hostile patients "benefit" from these drugs insomuch as they are unable to act our their agression simply because they are so highly sedated.

Alzheimer's = a real disease
Parkinson's = a real disease
Various age-related dementia causing diseases do exist, and they are physical in nature.
Rapid cycling narcicisstic manic depressive bi-polar disorder = disease? Or is it just another way of saying "Hey, I'm a violent dangerous asshole, I have no intention to abide by societal norms, and I'll hurt you, and you, and you, and everyone that comes in contact with me and when people finally confront me I'm going to shove my papers in their faces, I'm crazy, see! I can't help it!"
Maybe, if these idiotic mental illnesses were not so overly diagnosed, there would be some credibility in the few people that might actually suffer from them.

One could point out that the vast majority of men who commit violent crimes without a weapon are large, muscular, and burly. It would stand to reason that guys who pick bar fights and use their fists to do their fighting, raping, and murdering are going to be physically strong as a general rule. Now, let's just call that "rapid cycling physically strongitis" and give them a drug to shrink their muscles and bones, knock a foot off their height, and turn them into little weaklings. I guarantee you that they will likely cease engaging in hand-to-hand aggressive behaviors after that. But that doesn't erase their motives, or their true nature, it simply renders them unable to act on it. So who decided that someone who is in love with themselves, hurts everyone they are close to, destroys families and relationships, and acts like a total asshole... who decided they suffered from a disease? Regardless of what thoughts and urges people might develop out of a "mental condition", they still have CHOICES. Behavior is something people are entirely in control of (unless they suffer from a real physical disease such as dementia, or brain damage), and far too many people have been given a license to be disgusting by their psychiatrists.

[Heartland]

I'm not going Cruise, or anything, in fact if there is a case to be made for mental illness existing it's Tom. :1chirol_r

I will definitely agree that too many Americans are overmedicated needlessly. A few lifestyle changes would go a long way toward curing what many doctors hand out drugs for. Anti-depressants are handed out at the drop of a hat, with no psychiatric involvement, no psychological testing, nothing but a patient crying that they feel depressed or stressed.

When my dad got sick, I had an unrelated doctor appointment for myself, and mentioned how stressed I was at that time because of my dad. (He's still stressing me out on a daily basis, but them's the breaks!) She didn't even bat an eye, just wrote out a script for Xanax, and I had not asked for anything! I did try them just out of curiosity, but they zonked me out so much and made me want to sleep all the time so I threw them away. They definitely worked as far as relaxing me, but it wasn't the kind of relaxation I needed, which could only come from working through the problem to its end.

Instead of learning how to get ourselves through our crises and rough times, we medicate ourselves, and therefore never learn how to roll with the punches and recover from the bad things that happen to us or the stress we feel. So instead of becoming stronger people as we age, we become weaker and weaker, until we can't even handle the slightest stressful situation unless we drug ourselves. To me, that's not living, that's existing. Life includes both ends of the emotional spectrum and everything in between, and I prefer to experience every bit of it and grow as a person from those experiences.

[10x]

Base this might help you in your decisions.

http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=10057

The MRI may also end up being used as a treatment for such.